Automation software on M1 mac

[ASF]

Is anyone running automation software on an M1 mac yet? Specifically Logix designer, FTView, older versions of RSLogix 5000, etc? Anyone tried running an older OS like Windows 7 or XP?

My colleagues 8 year old MacBook Pro is having some issues and we're looking to replace it. We don't want to go an Intel based mac if we can avoid it, because I think they'll lose support a lot faster than in previous years - but we also need a useable solution for right now. VMWare is obviously not an option, Parallels seems to be, but all the articles I read are more focused on whether you can run games on it, and come with a lot of caveats.

Anyone got hands on experience with Parallels/M1 Mac and automation software?

 

[ndzied1]

I was told, but did not verify, that bootcamp will not run Windows on an M1 based mac. I'm not sure about other means of running windows on a mac such as Parallels.

Here's something I just looked up:
https://www.howtogeek.com/701733/can-you-run-windows-software-on-an-m1-mac/

 

[Operaghost]

In reading the VMware Fusion blog, it does sound like they will be supporting Fusion on the M1 at some point (Tech Preview sometime this year). However, they will focus on Linux as Microsoft licensing is a roadblock. Other comments:

• We don’t plan to support installing or running x86 VMs on Macs with Apple silicon.
• Windows is second priority behind Linux
• Microsoft currently does not sell licenses of Windows 10 ARM for virtual machines.
• Insider builds of Windows 10 ARM may only be installed on systems with a licensed version of Windows 10, which is currently not available on Apple hardware.

Also from that same blog post:

...and Apple silicon Macs don’t support Boot Camp. That means it’s time for us to innovate and rebuild our beloved desktop hypervisor for Macs, VMware Fusion, to support the next generation of Apple hardware.

Of course, that is a blog and not official statements. Site is here:
https://blogs.vmware.com/teamfusion/2021/04/fusion-on-apple-silicon-progress-update.html

OG

 

[Helliana]

Even if you could get a Windows ARM on a VM to run, none of the major automation software supports ARM. I would think the only way it could theoretically work would be if you used a virtualization software that emulated x86, which would be painfully slow and inefficient.


There are ARM versions of Linux and a large amounts of precompiled packages for ARM for most distributions because of the large amount of phones and other inexpensive embedded hardware such as the raspberry that support Linux. That would be why they would focus on Linux as most Linux users wouldn't notice a difference between x86 or ARM. There also almost no applications for Windows ARM and it would not run standard x86 applications, so a Windows VM on ARM hardware would be pointless for most people.

 

[Operaghost]

I think the point here is not that we are trying to use Windows on ARM. The point is to run MacOS on ARM hardware but be able to create and run say Windows 10 in a VM.

That seems easy enough, until you really think about what that would entail. It sounds like VMware would have to redo their Fusion hypervisor.

The blog seems to be saying that to make it work you would have to have Windows for ARM running on the host (M1 hardware), but Microsoft does not offer Windows on ARM licenses. That didn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't want Windows on the host, I want it as the guest O/S. So yeah, they lost me there.

OG

 

[Helliana]

The issue is VM software passes information directly to the processor bypassing most of your host OS, which is why your processors need VTx, AMD-V, SVM, or whatever your particular processor manufacture their virtualization specification enabled in BIOS. This is how you are able to get near host performance on VMs. You cannot do this when your VM and Host have different hardware architecture. It is the same reason you cannot run an ARM version of Debian on a VMware Workstation Windows 10 host. You would have to emulate the processor and convert the instruction set, which takes a lot of resources and greatly reduces VM performance.

 

[ASF]

Thanks everyone. I've followed the VMWare Fusion process since the M1 was announced, and I'm aware that they don't intend to support Windows, at least in the short term.

Parallels looks more promising because as others have said, it can run Windows 10 ARM, which can in turn run x86 apps, and will possibly soon support x64 apps as well, according to this article from April 2021.

But since theory and practice are two very different things, I thought I'd see if anyone has any practical experience on this front to help me fill in the blanks before we take the plunge on a new M1 mac. I seem to recall someone on this forum say they had done it successfully (perhaps PBuchanan or daba?) but can't remember who, or where.

 

[Phil Buchanan]

Thanks everyone. I've followed the VMWare Fusion process since the M1 was announced, and I'm aware that they don't intend to support Windows, at least in the short term.

Parallels looks more promising because as others have said, it can run Windows 10 ARM, which can in turn run x86 apps, and will possibly soon support x64 apps as well, according to this article from April 2021.

But since theory and practice are two very different things, I thought I'd see if anyone has any practical experience on this front to help me fill in the blanks before we take the plunge on a new M1 mac. I seem to recall someone on this forum say they had done it successfully (perhaps PBuchanan or daba?) but can't remember who, or where.

I have been running the Rockwell Suite on my M1 MacBook Pro and my M1 Mac Mini for a while with Parallels but I was running the beta.

V17 has recently released and has full official M1 support.

https://www.parallels.com/pd/genera...to-zD5i0IcCHOlxTLgzWcoAT4pWzsHthoC7hIQAvD_BwE

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

@Phil Buchanan. How does it perform?

 

[JeremyM]

That’s great to hear. I’m eager to roll a new M1/M1X/M2 when they’re released.

 

[ASF]

@Phil Buchanan. How does it perform?

Seconded!

Which rockwell suite programs/versions have you been able to run? Have you been able to run older versions (e.g. v15, v16) of Logix 5000? Or only the newer ones?

 

[seanf]

I Know this forum post is a little old, but I wanted to share my results somewhere. Everything Rockwell works perfectly! (almost) with a well spec'd 2021 16" MacBook Pro with the M1 Max CPU, 32GB ram and a 2TB SSD running Parallels. (Forget about BootCamp). I suspect it will run fine with a lesser spec'd machine.

I am running Parallels version 17.1.1. You have to pay for it.
You have join the Windows Insider Program (it is free!). Then you can download the Insider Preview versions Windows 11 ARM. At the time of this writing, you have to opt in for the "Developer Channel" of the Windows Insider program to the most recent ARM version of windows that includes IIS (Internet Information Services) - Only needed for Factory Talk View "SE". I am currently running Windows 11 pro version 22H2 (build 22572.100). You will eventually have to purchase a license of Windows 11 too.

Rockwell may not "officially" support Windows 11 or ARM processors, but the Intel emulation in Windows ARM seems to work flawlessly. I am impressed with Microsoft here.

Please understand that I am using this computer every day, all day, connected to many different pieces of equipment simultaneously, doing real development, real troubleshooting and real debug work. I am working in a new factory startup for a medical device manufacturer. Any issues I have had are typical for any Windows 10 PC running these somewhat glitchy Rockwell applications natively. Therefore, I declare it as "no issues".

What I have tested in my day to day work flow:

Factory Talk Activation - no issues
BootP-DHCP tool - No issues
Logix 5000. v30 - v33 - no issues
Logix Designer Compare tool - no issues
RSLinx Classic v4.21 and some older versions - No issues
View ME studio v10-v12 - no issues
FactoryTalk Administration console - no issues
FactoryTalk View Studio Enterprise v10-v12 - no issues with "SE" as long as Windows IIS is installed. This windows feature was finally added to the ARM version of windows at the beginning of March this year (2022). Otherwise, the SE install will fail due to IIS being missing. ME works fine without IIS.

Finally: Logix Emulator v30-32. I can't get this to run (yet). It may be a Windows 11 issue, but I am not sure. The error is: "Unable to read Virtual Backplane status. Please make sure that RSLinx Classic is installed and the Virtual Backplane driver is running". (even though it is, twice)

PERFORMANCE:
The virtual machines in Parallels on this computer run fast. At least 50% faster than running Rockwell applications natively (no VM) or 2x faster than running in a Windows 10 VM, using my 2019 Dell i7 quad core, 32gb ram, 1TB ssd.
The most noticeable speed difference is compiling large View ME runtime files. While this is still agonizingly slow (what are you doing in there Rockwell?) it takes less than half the time with this configuration.
When running 2 or even 3 virtual machines simultaneously, the computer barely gets warm and the fans stay on low. I have run it on battery power this way for over 7 hours! Apple, that is impressive! The PC can barely run 2 hours with 1 VM running.

I am also running Cognex In-Sight explorer 6.2.1 and Cognex Dataman setup tool v6.1.6 with absolutely no issues.

I even run the old 2003 version of Excel and Word with no issues, other than it wants to save to the older .XLS and .DOC file types. All recent versions of Office applications work fine.

I use an application called "StartAllBack" to get rid of the horrible Windows 11 start "menu" and make something useful. This app also lets you tweak some of the less than desirable features of windows 11 into the older Windows 7 like features. This app is the only application of it's type I have found that works with ARM Windows. It is a paid application, but is relatively low cost, and well worth the price.

Best of luck out there!

 

[ASF]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I'm using my M1 Macbook Pro laptop in a similar environment to you, and have been similarly impressed with it's speed, capability, and especially the battery life. Best laptop I've ever used by a wide margin.

 

[ASF]

Finally: Logix Emulator v30-32. I can't get this to run (yet). It may be a Windows 11 issue, but I am not sure. The error is: "Unable to read Virtual Backplane status. Please make sure that RSLinx Classic is installed and the Virtual Backplane driver is running". (even though it is, twice)

I suspect your issue here is the same one I've run into multiple times - Windows 11 ARM can emulate x86/x64 applications but not x86/x64 drivers. So until RA release an ARM-compatible virtual backplane driver, you might be SOL. My experience was that the various drivers would appear to install fine, and say "successful" at the end of the process, but just flat out don't start or work or even appear to be present most of the time.

It might not be the same issue you're having, but as soon as I saw the word "driver" in the error message, my spidey sense started tingling...

 

[BruceI]

Finally: Logix Emulator v30-32. I can't get this to run (yet). It may be a Windows 11 issue, but I am not sure. The error is: "Unable to read Virtual Backplane status. Please make sure that RSLinx Classic is installed and the Virtual Backplane driver is running". (even though it is, twice)

Hi seanf

Did you, or anyone else reading this , find a solution to the emulation VBP driver problem?

cheers Bruce