Backing up random PLCs

[blazini36]

Looking for some advice for backing up the programs on a bunch of old random PLCs. All I'm really concerned about is getting the program out of them. I know some of these manufacturers have demo software but it's hard to navigate there websites of software suites and all sorts of things I don't need. I've backed up plenty of old PLCs before, like Symax and Omron C60s but it was a case by case thing and it's generally a huge PIA to get it all going. I have to go through my list but at the moment I have:


Mitsubishi MELSEC A2AS with GOT
Mitsubishi MELSEC F2-60M


Fuji F70S
Fuji Micrex-F
Siemens Simatic ET200M
I also have an Allen Bradley Panelview 900. I already extracted the PLC it's connected to but I'm not sure if this Panelview has it's own program.



I also have a bunch of motor drives I want to get the parameters out of. Some Siemens BRAsomething, Control Techniques,Fuji FVR-E11. I'll look up what I need to individually, just figured I could get some pointers. The Mitsubishi stuff is probably the most confusing ATM.

 

[parky]

The A2AS you can use GXDeveloper plus you need a 232 or usb to 232 converter the 232 Mitsi one is an SC09, the GOT is GTDeveloper (it may depend on the actual GOT).
The F Series is very old so probably MEDOC which is dos based so either XP or a VM, dosbox can emulate dos on many machines.
The Fuji is well old & probably the software is not available now unless there is a download somewhere.
ET200 M I believe is Step7 V5.5 (for win xp/10)
Panelview I believe is panelbuilder32 which will probably not run on os greater than win7, don't quote me on the last 2 but if I'm wrong someone here will correctly identify the software than can be used.
All the above will cost a fair few readies
You may be able to use MEDOC for the A2 as well.

 

[OkiePC]

The Panelview 900 requires Panelbuilder32.

Version 3.83 will run on Windows 7, 10, 11, but there are some hurdles to overcome depending on whether or not you have a too new version of RSLinx (the communication piece). If you have the software and run into that problem, there's a thread on this forum you can find by searching for the error code. Someone came up with a solution that many of us continue to use.

The file that runs on the hardware has *.pva extension and the file that is used by the development software will have a *.pba extension, so you might dig around for backup files.

Parky is the man for the Mitsu stuff and I am not able to help with any of the others.

 

[blazini36]

Thanks, great info.


I usually use a laptop running Linux with whatever VM necessary. I have an XP VM setup for the Omron c60 I did recently. DOS is by far the worst, I can't remember the details but I did a Symax with the special RS422 cable, I may have used Dosbox and I remember having to run a program to slow it down so the serial cable could communicate.

 

[blazini36]

The Panelview 900 requires Panelbuilder32.

Version 3.83 will run on Windows 7, 10, 11, but there are some hurdles to overcome depending on whether or not you have a too new version of RSLinx (the communication piece). If you have the software and run into that problem, there's a thread on this forum you can find by searching for the error code. Someone came up with a solution that many of us continue to use.

The file that runs on the hardware has *.pva extension and the file that is used by the development software will have a *.pba extension, so you might dig around for backup files.

Parky is the man for the Mitsu stuff and I am not able to help with any of the others.

I was able to download the PLC about a year ago, RSlogix sounds familiar. I recall it was just an RS232 cable. If I was able to communicate with the PLC is it likely that I only need Panelbuilder?

 

[parky]

If I remenber correctly the panelview has a 232 port, the AB plc may depend on the one you have SLC500-504 vary some only have 485, perhaps DH+ & 232 the Micrologix I think have 232.
The GOT terminal is a more recent addition to the Mitsubishi originally they used MAC or E series (re-badged Beijers) nearly all Mitsubishi older models have 422 the SC09 cable has an adapter 25 pin for the A & older F series, 8 pin mini din adapter for the FX series, there are some usb to 422 versions out there on Amazon or ebay.
Yes the PB32 software depending on what os you use there is a DLL that may be required (older version) there are posts on here regarding that, the PVA file can in most cases be converted to PBA (PB32 default file).
Just be aware, if these machines are OEM they could contain passwords.
I do suggest you try to get the management in charge of the money to upgrade these, the Mitsi are generally easy, F to FX & A to Q series.

 

[blazini36]

The A2AS you can use GXDeveloper plus you need a 232 or usb to 232 converter the 232 Mitsi one is an SC09, the GOT is GTDeveloper (it may depend on the actual GOT).
The F Series is very old so probably MEDOC which is dos based so either XP or a VM, dosbox can emulate dos on many machines.
The Fuji is well old & probably the software is not available now unless there is a download somewhere.
ET200 M I believe is Step7 V5.5 (for win xp/10)
Panelview I believe is panelbuilder32 which will probably not run on os greater than win7, don't quote me on the last 2 but if I'm wrong someone here will correctly identify the software than can be used.
All the above will cost a fair few readies
You may be able to use MEDOC for the A2 as well.

I generally use a USB to DB9 RS232 cable with an FTDI chip. I made a DB9-DB25 cable for the Omron C60 Link module and it worked fine, I think it was based on this:
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=64107
This setup ought to work in place of an SC09 right?

 

[blazini36]

Just be aware, if these machines are OEM they could contain passwords.

Haven't run into that yet, I hope that's not the case

I do suggest you try to get the management in charge of the money to upgrade these, the Mitsi are generally easy, F to FX & A to Q series.

Well being railed into OEM upgrades is specifically what I'm trying to avoid. Everybody claims to have lost their programs and want something crazy like $20k for OEM upgrades. If I can get the original program out of them before they randomly die, we can look at upgrading to a similar new PLC as long as the software accepts the original program. If not the ladder is still useful if rebuilding on a different PLC is necessary.

 

[parky]

Yes that's the problem some of the OEM's will try to sting you. I used to work for a systems house then later on as a systems manager for a large food company, did many upgrades in-house by myself, some OEM's may give you copies of the documented program, however, many will not as they claim it is their own developed code & do not want people ripping it off, however, as far as I'm concerned writing PLC code (especially in older sytems) is realy just cobbling together a bunch of pre-formed logic or functions. it will not be unique just different ways of using readily available functions to make a machine move.
As for many upgrades on some platforms there are conversion utils to convert older code to the later platforms the only real problem comes with communication cards or motion interfaces, mitsi is pretty good as a standard plc system is pretty much compatible with later hardware, although there is a limit i.e. going from a F series to FX5 is a problem as far as a direct conversion, in saying that the F series will generally convert to the slightly older FX series, one thing to bear in mind is that at some point the I/O connection blocks were arranged slighly different it is only a minor mod but might find some wires may not be long enough so a little bit more work needs to be done.
AB can be a bigger problem as they seem to not support older versions as much.
A good example is Mitsubishi GXWorks (comes with GXDeveloper bundled for older models) can be used even on many of the older models for example A2's although these are now EOL. the F series are so old to read it you probably will need to upload with one of the following in the pic, although MEDOC will read it I don't think it can be directly imported.
Me personally, I would printout the original code, then using that as a guide would write my own, sometimes it can be quicker to re-write if you understand the machine & how it works.

 

[blazini36]

Yes that's the problem some of the OEM's will try to sting you. I used to work for a systems house then later on as a systems manager for a large food company, did many upgrades in-house by myself, some OEM's may give you copies of the documented program, however, many will not as they claim it is their own developed code & do not want people ripping it off, however, as far as I'm concerned writing PLC code (especially in older sytems) is realy just cobbling together a bunch of pre-formed logic or functions. it will not be unique just different ways of using readily available functions to make a machine move.
As for many upgrades on some platforms there are conversion utils to convert older code to the later platforms the only real problem comes with communication cards or motion interfaces, mitsi is pretty good as a standard plc system is pretty much compatible with later hardware, although there is a limit i.e. going from a F series to FX5 is a problem as far as a direct conversion, in saying that the F series will generally convert to the slightly older FX series, one thing to bear in mind is that at some point the I/O connection blocks were arranged slighly different it is only a minor mod but might find some wires may not be long enough so a little bit more work needs to be done.
AB can be a bigger problem as they seem to not support older versions as much.
A good example is Mitsubishi GXWorks (comes with GXDeveloper bundled for older models) can be used even on many of the older models for example A2's although these are now EOL. the F series are so old to read it you probably will need to upload with one of the following in the pic, although MEDOC will read it I don't think it can be directly imported.
Me personally, I would printout the original code, then using that as a guide would write my own, sometimes it can be quicker to re-write if you understand the machine & how it works.

Yeah I've been burnt quite a few times with PLCs dying or just having the program in RAM and the battery dies. In an industry with alot of conveyors people generally know the PLCs and how to maintain them. In this industry random equipment is purchased over the years and most people in the plant don't even know there is a PLC in the machine. Then the OEM probably made 2 or 3 units with that PLC, then they switched to the newer model and somehow lost the old program.


I just dealt with one machine that was built in 94' in Europe somewhere that had an Omron C60 that had some electical issue on the logic board. The Maintenance guy sent it for repair and it came back missing the program because it was stored in RAM and it was unpowered that whole time. I managed to track down the guy who wrote the OEM programs for the next gen PLC they used and got him to re-write the C60 code. Luckily I found the link module and Syswin. Aparrently they didn't use it enough because upgrading to a newer PLC was an option but obviously the cost would be higher.


I'm personally not good with ladder. I just deal with the old PLC thing because I can bless ancient PC software and I know a good deal about serial comm standards. I do some CNC retrofits but I never use PLCs in anything I do because I hate all of this proprietary software/cable stuff it gets into. I've got like 9 ancient PLC suites installed in an XP VM, lol this is why I hate PLCs.....


That said I think I managed to get ahold of most of the software I think I'll need. Step7 I don't have a license for yet which I assume I'll need to get online unless it's in demo mode. I found Micrex-F software but it faults out with some dialog error when trying to setup the COM port. The cost of the Micrex Link module might make it prohibitively expensive to deal with this one anyway. I can't find MEDOC anywhere, I emailed a guy who made a Youtube video but otherwise I can't find it. Rather than patching Generic RS232/RS422 cables together I ordered some knockoff OEM cables from Amazon for the AB, Siemens, and Mitsubishi PLCs. I was definitely able to upload the program from the AB with RSLinx/RSLogix with a generic RS422 or RS232 cable and maybe a null modem previously but I can't remember and figured it best just to but a specific cable for it and the panelview this time.

 

[parky]

Yes been there, When I started at the last company I worked for, equipment from all over the world, same problem many different PLC's, fortunately working for a systems house had plenty of experience of all the main types & even a few of the more unusual types. Again same problem they would buy machines or plant without consulting me, many were purchased from re-sellers again most plant was of 1990's origin. It took me a few years to get the management to consult me before buying new or used plant. Eventually, by contacting oem's to get copies (usually with an assurance that it would not be used for anything else other than the plant supplied) or uploading the raw code & adding as much documentation as possible etc. I managed to get every one of them on our server. I had a good few years upgrading many of them, had a PPM schedule of replacing batteries at least once a year & backing up including stored data. I have sent you a PM.

 

[JesperMP]

[..]at at the moment I have:
[..]
Siemens Simatic ET200M

That said I think I managed to get ahold of most of the software I think I'll need. Step7 I don't have a license for yet which I assume I'll need to get online unless it's in demo mode.

If you can specify what Siemens PLC parts you have exactly (part no's, the 6ES7... numbers), then we can advice what can be done and what you need.

 

[blazini36]

If you can specify what Siemens PLC parts you have exactly (part no's, the 6ES7... numbers), then we can advice what can be done and what you need.

I didn't grab full part numbers, I just took pictures of everything so I could get an idea of what everything was. I'll get the part numbers when I get back down there.


ET200M and S7-214 are what I have at the moment.

 

[blazini36]

......I have sent you a PM.

Not seeing any messages

 

[parky]

No idea why but for some reason it did not post it, have done it again so hopefully you should get my email address.
Ironically, when I tried to see my sent messages at first it cam up with an error saying that the page may have been moved, but when I went back in & looked at my sent messages it was there.