beginer's question

[Kaz Osuchowski]

Hello All,
I own and operate consumer electronics repair shop in a small town outside Toronto.Have been in servicing field for almost 30 years repairing anything from main frame computers and their peripherials to components of industrial electronics. Consumer elecronics is what I do since coming to Canada some 14 years ago.Here, where I'm now ,I've become "Mr.Fix It" with more and more industrial customers knocking on my door, quite a few of them ask me if I'm familiar with PLCs to which I have to supply a negative answer.
In general it's my objective to increase the component of industrial repairs as fixing TVs and the like is less & less profitable.
I decided that I want to familiarize myself with PLCs & its programming.I did some studies and that's when I discovered this forum.Spending a few hours over the posted subjects greatly increased my awarness of the subject field.I believe I have a pretty strong knowledge of electrical engineering (have even a degree), theoretical in most of the areas (as I never worked in the industrial evironment) but ready to be dusted off.
Forgive my lengthy introduction but I intend to stay here, mostly as a listener and ocasionaly asking some obvious questions.
The first steps I'm to undertake is to buy a CD with PLC Technician Certificate Programm from Brown College, I'll add a few book members of the forum suggest and I'm about to ask you about a value of this:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3801926130&category=11806
eBay item 3801926130 (Ends Mar-11-04 16:37:38 PST) - AUTOMATION DIRECT PLC TRAINER! Not ALLEN BRADLEY
I understand the advantages of a good simulator , but believe that nothing beat a piece of hardware one can put one's hands on.
I would apprecciate any feedback and comments.
Regards,
Kaz

 

[elevmike]

NO NO NO NO!!

$251.00 IS VERY OVERPRICED FOR A DL105!

This is a good PLC model to learn on but the price is way too steep.
That's ebay. sometimes people just go crazy...

I would suggest a DL-05DR . This PLC costs about $100.00 US, and can accept an encoder input, and has a far larger insturction set, more memory etc. A much better unit to learn and test programming on. The outputs are relay contacts, and the inputs use 24vdc.

You can purchase a DL-05, software, and programming cable NEW for about $250.00 US. With a quick trip to Radio Shak for a few switches and a little assembly time you'll have a far better "trainer"

Everyting you will need is in the link above.

Another good PLC for training would be the DL-06DR , this PLC has an aux 24vdc power supply that can be used for the inputs, a clock calander, and Lots of instructions, Memory etc.. Total cost for PLC sofware cable etc.. about $400.00 US.

Good Luck with it.

Mike

 

[elevmike]

Kaz,

Here's another link for you to brouse: http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~jackh/books/plcs/

 

[Eric Nelson]

NO NO NO NO!!

$251.00 IS VERY OVERPRICED FOR A DL105!

This is a good PLC model to learn on but the price is way too steep.
That's ebay. sometimes people just go crazy...

Based on the pictures at Ebay, that one would teach you more about how to troubleshoot faulty wiring than programming!...

Kaz, I would think the industrial customers are coming to you for PLC 'repair', rather than programming, no? With your background, you should have very little difficulty troubleshooting and repairing PLCs. One problem you may have if finding documentation. In other words, you won't find a SAMS Photofact schematic for them...

If you want to get into this market, you may consider asking these customers if you can 'borrow' their defective PLCs. Pop 'em open and have a look. There's really no 'magic' in there. It's all stuff you're already familiar with... :nodi:

beerchug

-Eric

 

[Eric Nelson]

Disragarding the fact that it looks ugly, US$215.00 is not a bad deal assuming the stuff is somewhat new. Cost new:

$199 - DL105 F1-130AA PLC
$99 - DirectSOFT (DL105 only)
$29 - Programming Cable
$19 - DL105 Manual (hardcopy)
----
$346

The rest of the stuff is worth roughly 50¢ though...

beerchug

-Eric

 

[elevmike]

Eric,

The reasons I suggested the DL-05DR:

1. Lower cost.
2. Much larger instruction set. (more stuff to learn about)
3. Hi-speed, and chatch-pulse inputs (not available with AC inputs)
4. Relay outputs would be more versitale than SS AC outputs.

Or for $75.00 more than you total he can get a DL-06DR, and download the manual.

Just my opinion.....

As far as repairing PLCs. A lot of new stuff is SMTs and thus throwaway. Much of the older stuff can be purchased inexpensively on ebay. And documenttation may be a problem. I've had a few items repaired by Mountan Electroncs, (GE series 3) but when it comes to the GE series one, I've found that for the most part it isn't worth while.

Mike

 

[Kaz Osuchowski]

Thanks Mike & Eric for you input,
Asking about DL105 trainer I ment it's eductional value rather then monetary one , as I evaluated the price against new components and assuming that everything works it's not that bad of a deal-I thought.
I understand that there are seven more PLCs within DL105 family that if bought and installed would expand the scope of programming applications of the mentioned trainer. Asuming that ,my question now is:am I heading in the right direction to educate myself in the new chosen field , or should I aim for another make and try to aquire similar set of components to assamble a different trainer?
I've already bought PLC Trainer from Koldwater that imitates latest AB software , so I'm wondering if my "real"
trainer should be of AB make? , or contrarily, working with two different brands will be more beneficial?
I be personaly inclined to go with the latter aproach ,but I would value v.much your opinion here.
As to repairing PLCs and other components in industrial electronic field ,I have about 80% success- usually p.supplies and driving stages that fail ,like in everything else; what I cannot fix I replace and Ebay is very helpfull when it comes to older stuff. Eric is right about the documentation which is almost never obtainable , so in many case reverse engineering is what takes the most time in a repair process. Trying to get into PLC progamming I have in mind small industrial enterprises that don't have in-house PLC techician/programmer and have to rely on outside help to carry on with some modifications/repairs, and anyway I like to know how, in broader sense it works what I'm about to fix.
Recently I had to turn down a couple of customers of that sort.
Thanks againg for your help and all further comments and opinions are most welcomed.
Regards,
Kaz

 

[Rube]

Kaz

Being that you are about to pull out your knife and carve your own little niche, I submit you get a sense of what PLCs you might be working on in that area. Then you can worry about getting the required hardware, software, and training. It ain't gonna do you any good to go get Seimens stuff if all you'll be working on is GE, AB, etc. This will save you some time and effort as well as money.

 

[elevmike]

Kaz,

The problem I have with the "Trainer" on ebay is that it's just not a good PLC for a trainer. I've installed dozens of 105s and with good results. They have a limited instruction set. It's like working with a 20,000 word dictionary, or a 50,000 word dictionary. If they cost the same, which would you buy??? Any trainer should be versitle. The Dl-05DR, and DL-06DR, will offer a far greater traning experience over the Dl-105AA. You simply can do far more things with them. I would never pick a 105AA for a trainer. You can assemble a better "trainer" for less money with a DL-05DR. It has less I/O than the 105 but is far more sophisicated on the inside.

There are so many brands, and so many agruments for any brand it's like commiting suicide jumping into that argument.

If your going to do programming for people, and can pick the PLC make, than buy that PLC for your trainer. You have a lot of reasearch to do that cant be done on any forum. Buy a PLC and start programming. After some expierence you will know more about what your needs are. Just dont buy that "trainer" on ebay.

Good Luck with it!

Mike