Changing from Step7 to RS5000 - how easy?

[RMA]

or should that be how difficult?

We've been asked to quote for a small project (control of 3 compressors. There's not a lot of IO and the control itself seems fairly simple. Since the final destination is Thailand it has to be written in ladder. (At least the commissioning should be fun!)

Equipment is as follows

2 x 1756-A4
2 x 1756-EN2T
2 x 1756-L61
2 x 1756-PA72
2 x 1756-RM
1 x 1756-RMC1

1 x 1756-A13
1 x 1756-EN2T
1 x 1756-IB16
2 x 1756-IB161
3 x 1756-IF61
1 x 1756-OB8
1 x 1756-OB81
1 x 1756-OF6CI
1 x 1756-PA72
1 x MVI56E-MCM

1 x 2711PC-T6M20D

We've got to get a quote out by the middle of next week and the SW needs to be basically finished by the middle of March.

In order to make a sensible quote I need to have some sort of idea how long I'll need to get to the point where I can be fairly productive - including how long does it take to install the RSLogix5000 SW.

Configuring the Ethernet and Modbus is one thing that has me a bit worried when I think back to my first attempts with Step7!

Another thing, in Step7 I often use ladder to go online and view a running program because the "NOT" inversion is much easier to see than in Function Block, but I find Step7 ladder very uncomfortable to program in. Is it possible to switch between Function Block and Ladder in RS5000 - I reckon I'm getting on for twice as fast in Step7 Function Block compared to Ladder?

Thanks in advance for any information, any hints and tips will also be most welcome.

Cheers

Roy

 

[widelto]

This is what you need:
http://www.rockwellautomation.com/solutions/migration/programs.html
it´s a migration program from Siemens to CLX

 

[RMA]

Thanks widelto, that's a really useful start it'll help a lot.

If anybody has any comments on where to watch out for potential pitfalls or where you need to forget Siemens and look at things from a completely different viewpoint and be really glad to hear them.

Cheers

Roy

 

[bosko1]

depends

did you use UDTs and custom FCs with input/output paramaters in S7 or just create everything in OB1?

RSLogix 5000 has UDTs and addons. It will probably take you some time to set those up for your first project, but the concepts are at least the same as S7. I jumped from S7 to RSLogix 5000 in 2004 and it wasn't a big problem for me.

also, you can't switch between languages on the fly in RSL5K

 

[widelto]

RMA: Download Plantpax library, maybe these utilities can help you some way.

 

[RMA]

you can't switch between languages on the fly in RSL5K

Pity about that, I hope the ladder editor is more comfortable than in Step7!

The biggest Problem we have at the moment is time. We have to have the quote out by Wednesday and the basic program has to be finished by the middle of March (actually that shouldn't be too much of a problem, I reckon I'd be finished in 2 or 3 weeks in Step7). I haven't a clue at present how long it's going to take me to get up and running and since this is a one off project we can't afford to give the customer all my learning time free of charge.

@bosko, we'll certainly using UDTs, we want to use standard blocks for motors and valves if possible just like multi-instance FBs in Step7 - is there a direct equivalent or do you have to roll your own somehow?

 

[nwboson]

I regularly program in both. The AB won't do the debuggable parameterized function calls like the Siemens and isn't quite as friendly about creating libraries of function calls. Retentive data is handled differently: explicit in Siemens, get it by default in AB.

Aside from those small differences, I would consider any project to take virtually the same amount of time to program in either environment. I only use ladder logic (to assure maximum readability for other engineers in the future) so I can't speak to function blocks or structured text.

I went from AB to Siemens with about 3 days, maybe 5 lost to learning curve. After my experience, one of our other engineers picked up the Siemens in about 2.5 days and was working productively after that. Most of those 2.5 days of his was battling the Siemens High Speed Counters: HSC's are finicky and unique- but that's true even within the same brand. I never feel right about charging the customer for my learning curve so we usually eat the cost of learning a new device.

The AB PLCs are very sensitive when you are first loading the firmware and IP addresses: I have bricked two brand new PLCs and had to send them back to the factory. Just be very patient waiting for the process of installing firmware to complete and all will go well: I made the mistake of thinking it was finished and powering the PLC down. Siemens does a much better job of handling the initial firmware install and IP setup IMHO.

 

[daba]

The AB PLCs are very sensitive when you are first loading the firmware and IP addresses: I have bricked two brand new PLCs and had to send them back to the factory. Just be very patient waiting for the process of installing firmware to complete and all will go well: I made the mistake of thinking it was finished and powering the PLC down. Siemens does a much better job of handling the initial firmware install and IP setup IMHO.

I have never seen the Siemens firmware update, so can't comment on it, but can categorically state that the A-B firmware update is sound. As you say, it's not a good idea to power down while being flash updated.

The latter series of processors (L6x onwards) are not supposed to turn into bricks if the update process is interrupted. They should, by design, revert to the factory default (bootstrap) firmware, and allow you to flash upgrade them again.

In the course of my work and my tutoring, I have flashed, flashed, and flashed again, hundreds of times, and have never had any incidents. I regularly flash upgrade my 1756-L62 to test code for posting on here.

You mention patience - I would never flash upgrade a module using serial RS232 communications, unless I had a couple of hours to spare. You definitely need to use EtherNet (1-2 mins) or ControlNet (3-4 mins). (Timings for a ControlLogix processor flash).

 

[jdbrandt]

I would not use any OIT besides a traditional, fully supported PanelView Plus.
I think you're cheaping up on a touch screen, in proportion to the I/O, IMHO.

 

[nwboson]

My apologies if I offended anyone by pointing out a lesson I learned when updating the firmware on L32E processors. Its great to hear the L62's can no longer be turned into useless bricks by simply screwing up the firmware flash.

I would say that, for me, Siemens is FAR easier to understand regarding this initial IP address configuration and firmware update process. I've always been confused by the Allen Bradley bootp setup that you use before it has an IP address and the RSLogix access after it has an IP address. Changing a block of IP addresses on the AB can get incredibly confusing. There may be better ways to initially set up an AB processor, give it an initial IP address, or change its IP address that I don't know.

With Siemens there are no tricks to learn about setup. It just doesn't make any difference whether your PLC already has an IP address or not: it finds the PLC on your network regardless of its condition. After fighting through the confusion for years in Allen Bradley, it was a breath of fresh air to set up a Siemens PLC the first time.

Just my experience regarding the differences since I DO use both.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Pity about that, I hope the ladder editor is more comfortable than in Step7!

I find the editing to be about equal but the RSLogix has one big advantage. You can enter the rungs in text. It is worth while to learn so you don't have to reach for the mouse so much.

Another big change is that RSLogix allows you to change rungs on the fly whereas Step7 changes FC, and FB on the fly. With Rockwell you can revert back to the old rung if you screw something up.

Ethernet/IP is easy. What Siemens had before ProfiNet was awful by comparison. Now the Ethernet/IP and ProfiNet are about the same but I still think configuring Etherent/IP is a little easier but that is because I have done it so many times I don't need to look at the manual.

At first Step7 looks like is more modular but you have have multiple programs running in RSLogix. I would try to use one set of code for your 3 compressors and start up 3 instances of the code but pass different data for each instance.
You will probably have more programs that do other things like handle the Etherent/IP I/O. Remember Ethernet/IP doesn't update variables synchronously to the scan whereas I am pretty sure the ProfiNet always did.

The hard core Rockwell guys can tell you how to implement the same state machine/program 3 times. I have never used multiple programs myself because I just write demo programs that are small examples.

 

[jdbrandt]

My apologies if I offended anyone by pointing out a lesson I learned when updating the firmware on L32E processors. Its great to hear the L62's can no longer be turned into useless bricks by simply screwing up the firmware flash.

I would say that, for me, Siemens is FAR easier to understand regarding this initial IP address configuration and firmware update process. I've always been confused by the Allen Bradley bootp setup that you use before it has an IP address and the RSLogix access after it has an IP address. Changing a block of IP addresses on the AB can get incredibly confusing. There may be better ways to initially set up an AB processor, give it an initial IP address, or change its IP address that I don't know.

With Siemens there are no tricks to learn about setup. It just doesn't make any difference whether your PLC already has an IP address or not: it finds the PLC on your network regardless of its condition. After fighting through the confusion for years in Allen Bradley, it was a breath of fresh air to set up a Siemens PLC the first time.

Just my experience regarding the differences since I DO use both.

Dude.
Those of us in both worlds know that each have their strengths and weaknesses.
No one selection is best at everything, 'cause if they were, there wouldn't be any others.

 

[RMA]

Thanks for all the information. It sounds as though the transition shouldn't be too bad and as far as the IP setup is concerned, forewarned is forearmed!

Cheers

Roy