Euopean wire colored cables Revisited

[ArikBY]

Last week I got order for panel for someone who have plants in Israel and in the States.
He ask for panel who can comply our standard and UL standard.
The major problems is the wires and cabels.
I have not decided what to do, but I assume I will do it according to UL standard and fight with the inspectors here.

 

[LadderLogic]

Arik,

I guess it would be easier for you to follow the Israeli standards for color code (which, I assume, the same as the European ones).

After all, the European standards are enforced by governmental agencies while in the States this stuff is more loosely defined. As long as your customer is OK with your choice - that should be fine. I have never heard of anyone being in trouble for using brown-blue-black cables in the US (we are talking about automation, the wiring in buildings would be an entirely different story whatsoever). Of course, the cable conforming to several of the standards would be a perfect choice - like this one: http://www.lappusa.com/Spec_Template.asp?nGroupID=10140

 

[ArikBY]

The problem as I understand it would be when the machine will arive to US and be inspected, the inspector will see differnt cabel and wires.It will be hard to convince hime to approve that.
All the other is Omron AB Siemens so that is not the big problem.
The Israeli cabel look like the European.But the color code is sometime different.
Lapp cabel and some other manufacturers made cabels with UL and European standard but is very rare over here.
I can get Carol and some Belden here and the rest I will have to import from the States.
The problem with the import is the customs, there is no tex between Israel to US just bureaucracy.
I hope I will go through that smoothly.
Quastion.
For 24 VDC low voltage there is no rules or you must use UL standart cabels and wires too?

 

[LadderLogic]

Arik:

I am not sure what kind of "inspection" your machine will be subjected to - except the acceptance by your customer, of course.

Hence my answer: it could be either UL or CE or both. I personally cannot remember anyone to care. At least, no one but the customer. All the UL certifications are recommended, not mandatory. So there is no need to feed and support an army of inspectors and enforcers, excluding those who are paying for your work anyway...

I could be wrong on this, though. If someone could clarify, it will be appreciated.

 

[ArikBY]

FRom my experience in the States before, in Chicago I had to go through UL inspector to get the UL label on my panels then the city inapector who check all the line. it was 1200A line.
My customer claim that is the process in the States and that what I have to follow.He paid for that big money not to me, to all the others.
The inspector checked the cabels wire.
They put 14AWG for inputs and outputs and also 14AWG for 1 HP motor.
They said that the low.
I could not argue.

 

[LadderLogic]

Arik:

If you don't mind answering: is your customer a private business or is it a governmental outfit (federal, state, city etc.)? This could explain the difference.

I have had a customer who requested 18 AWG wires for all I/O (24 VDC) and we had to comply. Normally me and everyone I know around use 22 AWG for that without a problem. 14 AWG??? Wow...

 

[Tom Jenkins]

It might be worthwhile, Arik, to purchase a copy of UL-508 standards. That identifies color codes and wire sizes required for various functions.

The inspector in question was full of **** - code doesn't require AWG #14 for all wires, but he was too lazy or incompetent to figure out what was going on and appropriate. Chicago requires conformance with UL-508 for control panels, and if your panel was per that standard and had some one knowledgable to "discuss" the concerns with the inspector things might have gone better for you.

Chicago is one of the worst jurisdictions in the USA to work in. They have many exeptions and deviations from national codes, the inspectors are too often political hacks, and they suffer from generations of union abuse and featherbedding.

 

[ArikBY]

LadderLogic Tom

The company I worked for is privet company and the owner is not happy to pay more for any thing.
The company hired the elctrical contractor to help me to install the line according to the local code.
The instaalation was not in my scope.I just had to cooperated.
They are big company with 8 site in the States and some world wide.
They are well organize, they have engineering department with qualified engineers.I could not argue they paied for my work.
maybe because the input and outputs was 120V it different.
The big quastion is.
When I build panel and wire machine according to european standard it
acceptable in the States or not?