help an old dog (Ron) learn new (Indramat) tricks ...

[Ron Beaufort]

over the last year or so one of our best training customers has sent a lot of their technicians to us for Allen-Bradley PLC training ... now the other side of the same plant wants training for their techs too ... the issue is that the other side of the plant doesn’t use Allen-Bradley ... everything over there uses Indramat controls ... my job right now is to come up with a ballpark guess as to how much we’ll have to charge for a custom-designed HANDS-ON course that will basically duplicate the same types of troubleshooting skills that I’ve been teaching for years - but using Indramat hardware and software ...



big problem: I’ve never touched Indramat before ...



what I’d really like is for some Indramat-knowledgeable forum member(s) to please take a look at the following list and see if there are any obvious gaping holes in the toys we’re about to buy ... my boss is hoping to pick up most of this stuff on e-bay so that I can start putting together a working system that will demonstrate (if not completely duplicate) the plant’s working hardware ... what I’m hoping to prevent is a big “oh-you-left-out-the-fratistat” situation - and the potential sticker-shock involved in correcting that oversight ...



the list below was basically just copied (by my boss) from a set of drawings while he was at the plant a few days ago ...

 

-- Controller ----------------------------------

 

MTCB-02 (Module Rack MTCB)

CPUB/02-01 (Central Processor Module CPUB)

BLCB02 

APRB/02 (Axis Processor Module APRB)

 

-- I/O -----------------------------------------

 

RECO-G .06/01 (Remote I/O Rack RECO)

RECO-E 

RM-I.02 

RM-O.01 

RM-I.01.00 

BTM 03.1-NB-TA-TA-VA-SA-HA-2FF (Configurable 

                                Operator Panel

                                BTM03)

 

S3-DDS2 

 

IN531 

 

 

 

-- MT CNC --------------------------------------

 

IKO 985/0 25.0 

 

APRB/02 (duplicate of above)

 

KVR 1.3-30-3 (KVR 1.3 Application Description)

 

DDS-2.1-A200-DS03 (DDS 2.1/3.1 and MDD with 

 

SERCOS interface Application

 

Description)

 

 

 

-- SERCOS INTERFACE ----------------------------

 

DSS.1.1 

 

MDD 112D-L-030-N2L-130PAO W/ LEMD-AB112X2L1 

 

MDD 112D-L-015-N2L-130PAO W/ LEMD-AB112X2L1 

 

 

 

-- SONY MAGNE SCALE ----------------------------

 

GB-220 

 

 

 

-- SCALE INTERFACE -----------------------------

 

MD20A-ZM 

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

so ... any gaping holes? ... any obvious duplications? ... any sympathy for an old dog being forced to learn new tricks? ... any and all help, comments, suggestions, advice, etc. will be gratefully received ...



thank you ...

 

[Mickey]

"fratistat"? You are old.
My dad used to use that word and I'm 61.

"First, you have to charge your fratistat with some impossibilium to use it on your widget to get your widget back into whack. Then you have to smear some unobtanium on your doohickey to slide it into the thingamabob. This'll work 99% of the time unless your thingamabob is totally discombobulated, then you'll just have to buy a new one at Wal-Mart"
I dont know who said this.

 

[pimpim32]

I am working with Indramat, but with nothing what was posted.

Comparing with systems I am working this should work too, but you mwould like to size down drive and motors. 200 max amp drive and 110 amp motors will look kind of big into a classroom.

However items posted are from obsolete to extreme obsolete ( if I can say so ), so what is the advantage of making an obsolete system working?
Why not just talk with local Bosch-Rexroth distributor to cross all components to an actual platform, they might even come cheaper than some items on eBay. I remember one time looking for an 20 year old drive I found it on eBay at double price than an actual new drive.

And by the way, what "fratistat" suppose to mean? checked on net, come up with about 30hits but nothing to make me understand.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

from Mickey:

"fratistat"? You are old. My dad used to use that word and I'm 61.

yep, I’m “aged to perfection” too ... I’ll be 60 in another month or so ...



from pimpim32:

However items posted are from obsolete to extreme obsolete ( if I can say so )

certainly you may say so ... even our (potential) customer understands how old this stuff is ... but here’s the point: right now it’s still working - and it’s still making money ...

so what is the advantage of making an obsolete system working?

the customer wants his maintenance technicians to be able to troubleshoot and repair the system - with as little downtime as possible ... so if I were to put together a system with the “latest-and-greatest” components, then the technicians wouldn’t gain the same “hands-on” experience from the training course ... the objective of the project is to train the technicians how to solve the same problems - on the same equipment - that they’ll encounter once they return to the plant and start working on their company’s real system ...

Why not just talk with local Bosch-Rexroth distributor to cross all components to an actual platform, they might even come cheaper than some items on eBay.

yes, newer components might indeed be cheaper ... and I’m SURE that they’d be easier to obtain ... but until/unless the customer decides to shut down the plant someday and do an upgrade to all new components, then the training program needs to duplicate (as closely as possible) the older components that the technicians will have to deal with in the real world ...

And by the way, what "fratistat" suppose to mean? checked on net, come up with about 30hits but nothing to make me understand.

it’s just a technical-sounding “fit-all” word that old-timers like Mickey and I use from time-to-time - usually for comic effect ... it just means “some undefined - and nonspecific - but very important part of the system” ... consider it a good thing if you’re too young to be familiar with the term ...



thanks for responding ... your input is highly appreciated ...

 

[rta53]

"Indramat" sounds like a good opportunity to test out a real strong chain. Must be a reeeally good customer if you're willing to make this much of an investment in time and resources.

 

[fluidpower1]

You're not OLD just "Chronologically Gifted."

 

[Ron Beaufort]

old Indramat hardware needed ...

well, folks, this “custom training” project is STILL in the works - maybe ... as we knew all along, the biggest hurdle is going to be coming up with the necessary Indramat hardware to put together two “student stations” for the hands-on exercises ... this stuff is OLD and OBSOLETE - but it’s still working away and making money even as I type ...



and please don’t bother to recommend “upgrading” to new equipment - that is NOT an option ... this is a BIG plant with a 24/7 operating schedule - and every part that this line can turn out is already sold ... if they shut down to upgrade, they’re afraid that they’ll never be able to catch back up ...



I’ve recently spent a full week up at the plant site to “survey” the operation and see whether the training that the customer wants is even possible ... at this point I’m sure that we can give them what they NEED (and also what they WANT) but only if we can come up with the hardware to make the training really and truly a “hands-on” experience ...



so I’m posting today begging (begging! - not just asking) for ANY help in finding the pieces and parts that we need to pull this project together ... if anyone knows of a potential “junk pile” or “used equipment” supplier with this type of Indramat stuff, then please let me know ... and in the off chance that some forum member might have any “just lying around” resources available, I’m attaching a spreadsheet of what we’re looking for below ... there’s also a “rough-draft” sketch of how the lab equipment will (hopefully) be tied together (someday) ...



this has proved to be a VERY GOOD customer of ours for the Allen-Bradley training that we’ve already provided - and we’d certainly like to help them with their Indramat controllers too ...



thanks for any help that you might be able to provide ...

 

[rsdoran]

www.plccenter.com has:

http://www.plccenter.com/buy/INDRAMAT/DSS13

http://www.plccenter.com/buy/INDRAMAT/060984

They probably have more but that was a quick search. They may not have exactly what you want but may be able to assist in putting together a system that would work exactly the same but components may be diff i.e. may be able to assemble a smaller drive system with smaller motor etc but is assembled, communicates, programs, parameters, etc the same.

Will not hurt to contact them and give them your part numbers, see what they can do on components and pricing. Another thought would be see what the company has for spares that could possibly be used or where they buy their parts.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

thanks for the links, Ron ... I'll start making calls next week ...

Another thought would be see what the company has for spares that could possibly be used or where they buy their parts.

every single part that they can find is being used to keep the plant plugging along ... that's why I'm hoping to find some "alternative" source of supply through the forum ... they actually DID have a "trainer" put together several years ago ... now every part has been gutted out of it - and put to use on the line ...

even if I can't get enough parts to put together a full "student station" then I'm desperately hoping to be able to put enough together for my own "getting-up-to-speed" use ... I have no intention of trying to train someone on something that I don't understand myself - so I really NEED some new toys to play (sorry, WORK!) with before I can go much further ...

thanks again for the links ...

 

[TConnolly]

Ron, I know a guy who many years ago used to do Indramat. I'll shoot him an email to see exactly what he did and how much of it. If it looks like he might be able to help, I'll give you a call and pass on the contact info.

 

[Ken Moore]

I use these guys to repair obsolete process equipment:
http://www.sterlingservices.com/

They also sell used/refurbed "stuff". Might be worth a shot.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Ron, velocity control is similar to temperature control. You should have no problem with velocity control as it is a type 0 system. Position control is much different as position control is a type 1 system. However, temperature control and position control are type 1 systems.

You wrote a threa about this but you never used the term type 0 and type 1 like most control theory books would.

From what I have seen, I leave all questions about scaling and making Rockwell PID work to you BUT.....

Motion control in PLCs are iz out of question.
1. It can't be done right in a PLC.
2. The difference between type 0 and type 1 systems is significant.

 

[misamark]

http://www1.control.com/1026224291/index_html

Maybe this will help

Regards from Kuwait

MisaMark

 

[Ron Beaufort]

Greetings Peter,

thanks for the input, but I've got a hunch that you're not understanding my situation ... I'm not trying to "control" anything ... a customer just wants me to provide "hands-on" training for an existing system that is working FINE ... all I have to do is set up a lab with some hands-on equipment which EXACTLY matches the old, obsolete Indramat equipment which the customer is still using 24/7 ... they just want their new hire technicians to have a good idea of what the heck they're looking at when they go out to troubleshoot the equipment ... these guys are basically hired off the street with ZERO PLC or CNC experience ... the company has plenty of "control" people on staff ... it's just the new line technicians that they're worried about ... they're trying to cut the learning curve from years (literally) to weeks (or maybe months) ...

again thanks - but the LAST thing that I want to do is get involved in this company's control problems ...

and to all ... thank you for the links ... the power is off to our company's building right now for maintenance - so I'll start following up during the early part of next week ...

 

[tomalbright]

What's the potential for having some at-plant training, perhaps when part of the plant is down? Then the hardware is already in-place.

You run a risk of screwing up something that works, but they would get the best hands-on available - their own equipment.