Motor rated frequency???

Baldor Motors

If you are selecting a new motor, Baldor has some very good inverter duty motors that are well documented and seem to be pretty reliabe, dollar for horsepower. They do a really good job of telling you what the base and max speeds are right on the nameplate. They are made in the USA, typically, as well.
 
Baldor

Hey... We are looking a two applications for Baldor motors. Upgrading a Trim line and Sorter. We have many baldor motors on Vent fans and Grinding equipment. This is an interesting project. Hope the motors last, I would like to replace other toshiba motors. This is expanding our vendor list.

Bruce
:) :)
 
Marathon is another motor mfgr. of inverter duty motors. The Black Max motors cannot be started across the line they are so inverter duty.... A typical Black Max can run as fast as 4200 rpm on a 1765 base speed. Some even are rated intermittant duty speeds of 5200 rpm. This is right on the name plates and in the data sheets.

I have seen a 4 pole Black Max tag 4500 rpm and live.

Someone mentioned that a non inverter duty motor when running slower than base speed tends to run hotter due to cooling. This is correct and some non inverter duty cannot run opposite of rated direction. The cooling fins are the main limiting factor with rotor design a toss up on the reason.
 
This subject has been pretty well covered so how about a summary.

First, it is always better to look at an induction motor as a machine that develops torque and speed. Forget hp. Virtually all three phase induction motors will develop their rated torque (use the common formula T=hp x 5250/base speed) from near zero speed up to the motor's design base speed. That would be 50hz or 60hz generally. As you go above base speed, the torque falls off as the inverse of the overspeed up to a point where the torque starts falling off more rapidly than the overspeed and drops to zero soon after.

Second, in the zero to base speed range, while the magnetics are happy to produce the torque stated above, there are thermal limits in the motor depending on frame size, cooling method, insulation temp limits, etc. that prevent that full torque from being used on a contiuous basis. Motor manufacturers will provide a curve for this derating. This applies to all motors, not just inverter duty.

Third, in the overspeed range there are also some limits. Mechanical strength in the fan and rotor and balance issues may limit overspeed range below the point where the torque drops too low for the load. Bearings for all but 2 pole motors (3000 or 3600rpm) are not an issue since the same bearings are often used on 2,4,and 6 pole motors. This is true for all motors, not just inverter duty types. The manufacturer publishes torque/speed curves for the overspeed range too. Motor life is often improved by running overspeed, not reduced as mentioned above.

Finally, if you absolutely must use horsepower for sizing (always dangerous), you can study the torque/speed curves given above and you will see that, in underspeed, the horsepower (assuming no thermal derating) is a straignt line running from zero at zero speed up to the nameplate horsepower at nameplate speed. In overspeed, the horsepower is also a straight line which runs level from the nameplate horsepower point up to the speed where the torque begins to fall off rapidly. On commodity motors that point can be as low as 80Hz and on inverter duty motors is often guaranteed to be not lower than 120hz or double base speed. Again, use the manufacturers' charts.

Just one footnote: I did not say that you can take 2 pole (3000 or 3600rpm) motors up to double speed. The overspeed range is limited for those motors by mechanical and balance issues. What I said about underspeed, however, applies.

I am quite sure that typical torque/speed curves can be seen on rsdoran's excellent website and certainly can be had from motor manufacturers.
 
forgot that one!

We had an application in South Korea. A Siemens
drive representative setup the AC drive(s) and everything
seemed ok. He left and the drives ( 11 similiar machines )
kept tripping out on some torque/thermal error
( I do not remember exactly ) at a high speed/load but
not reaching what was stated in the contract. Being
a newbie I sunk my head into the drives manual. It was
that or get the guy back from Singapore. All of a sudden
I saw a parameter that did not look right. The Siemens
guy forgot to set a bit telling the drives the motors were
externally cooled. I set the bit ( In 11 machines! ) and the
drives ran to full contract speed with no more faults! Even
the Siemens Reps have bad days....
 
I think I know you - and you certainly know me !

For MM420's , there is a parameter for ambient temperature if I^2T is enabled , and of course this makes a big difference to whether the drive will sustain low speed high torque application for any time at all .

For all of this running a drive at 400 Hz , take and drive and try it , you will almost certainly not get past 120 Hz before the power drops and slip causes the motor to completely lose synch .
I dont't have any particular issues with running a motor at 75 Hz (50 Hz nominal) , the things are built to work , and this is not that terrifying. If the thing is inverter duty , and this is NOT just cooling efficiency (any motor and drive sized right to be fully flexible will be oversized anyway) , what about the voltages we hit the motor with ? insulation is also uprated.

Think again , the next time you read a CD at 56 speed , the little bit of plastic is whizzing around at nearly 10,000 rpm , and the cheap ones can fragment .
 
Leadfoot said:
Marathon is another motor mfgr. of inverter duty motors. The Black Max motors cannot be started across the line they are so inverter duty.... A typical Black Max can run as fast as 4200 rpm on a 1765 base speed. Some even are rated intermittant duty speeds of 5200 rpm. This is right on the name plates and in the data sheets.

I have seen a 4 pole Black Max tag 4500 rpm and live.

Someone mentioned that a non inverter duty motor when running slower than base speed tends to run hotter due to cooling. This is correct and some non inverter duty cannot run opposite of rated direction. The cooling fins are the main limiting factor with rotor design a toss up on the reason.
We've found the Black Max (1000:1) and Blue Max (2000:1) motors have another really great feature - they can run at really low speeds (with a vector closed-loop drive) such as 2 rpm for long periods of time without overheating (even the TENV frames) only thing to watch for is dust or other material building up in the heat fins and insulating the frame... really awesome motor for VFD applications.

David Groce
Power & Controls Automation
Norcross, GA.
 
In my experiance the amount over "overspeed" depends on the brand you're using. In our company we use sew (www.sew.de) motors, gearboxes and frequency converters. They can opperate within sertain limitits between 0 and 100Hz (that is for European motors with a 50 Hz base frequency)

Occasionaly we speed motors up to about 150-200 Hz. The motor can deal with these frequencies, but doesn't delever any tork anymore.

There is even a trick to get more power from your motor at higher frequencies.
 
We have many applications also where a motor is rated at 60Hz, and we're running them at 80Hz or so. One thing I have really noticed above 60Hz, the VFD has a MUCH more difficult time dealing with any regenerative force from the motor. We have several timing pumps and homogenizers, with large pulleys (lots of angular momentun), when we run them in the 60-65 Hz range the drives typically can handle the decel. without any dynamic braking. When we run a CIP we run faster, 70-90Hz range and I have found the need to add braking resistors on those particular applications. (energy's gotta go somewhere). The particular motor manufacturer we use a lot claims not to exceed the base Hz of the motor by 5%, but 30% or so has not been an issue. Our motors are not burning up pre-maturely.

This was the first time I was exposed to applications exceeding the base current by quite a bit, I did quite a bit of research on the topic and I'm adjusting to being okay with it. (can get away with a much smaller pump/motor in a lot of cases to achieve a required flow rate, and it hasn't been an issue).

Hopefully DickDV will respond. By the way, I have a great book which I purchased from ISA titled "Motors and Drives" is a great book. I usually don't pitch books much, but this one is definately worth the couple bucks, if you're new to motors and drives or advanced it offers something for everyone.

Greg
 
The higher motro speeds do take more braking, just like your car. Most inverter duty motors are like timex watches.

End users can do what they like with overspeeding a motor. Being a service tech for an integrator, I do not set things up if they are out of the range or the engineer has specified to set things that way. If a customer wants things their way and want me to do it, they have to sign a waiver where they accept 100% of the responsibility for any and all undesired actions.

That is part of why I like black max motors, the name plate shows just how you can really use them. I have seen many baldor and toshiba motors running at more than name plate rated speed. They were all INVERTER duty motors.
 
Leadfoot, I also like the Marathon Blue Max and Black Max motors but you might like to check the Reliance motor catalog for standard motors. In the first couple of pages, they have torque/speed rating curves for most of their motors including non-inverter duty models.

You will find that Reliance rates their motors (4 pole and slower) up to 90Hz. I've used many of their TEFC motors at those frequencies and have had good success doing so. I suspect that the same is true for some other motor brands as well.
 
I am familiar with Reliance motors too. I work on a lot of VSD's. I have seen some special applications High HP Reliance motors do some wild things. One type of Relaince we power routinely have a 39 hz base and 81 hz full speed. I have also put 200% torque at locked rotor into a pair of those motors 10 years ago to prove a point. We were within design specs and I was proving to the machine engineer that our drive would could produce the necessary power for a specific job.

More often than not, the motor of choice, like drives is like cars. We all have our likes and dislikes and essentially they all end up doing the job we want done.
 

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