New controls laptops - not running VMs

[becs]

The maintenance shop laptop for the electricians just died and I need to buy a new one.

We have a huge mix of controllers requiring different software in the plant. A lot of the controllers are old and obsolete too. Ideal solution would be to run a number of virtual machines with different software, but the electricians here already struggle to just get online with drives and PLCs without introducing that element (yes, it would be better to train the electricians, but most of them aren't part of the computer savvy generation).

The general plan right now is to have 3 laptops.
Laptop #1 - Siemens PG
Laptop #2 - AB software, other misc software that will run on Windows 7
Laptop #3 - Run Windows XP for misc older software

I'm having problems deciding on what to buy for laptop #2. The IT department is really pushing a Dell laptop on me, but I think I'll need to push back for something like a Panasonic Toughbook, both for the RS232 port and the toughness of it.

I would like to get something with more than 4GB of RAM, but worried about getting a 64bit machine. Comments about AB software on a 64bit machine? Other software would include DirectSoft, GE Prophecy ME, Maple systems EZ Ware, PL7, 505 Workshop, Parker Drive software, CX programmer, Global Drive. There's also a pile of stuff I'm not even thinking of right now.

 

[Holmux]

Hi Becs

Well spliting your software out on 3 laptops may or maynot be a good solution, I prefer everything loaded on the same, I use a 64bit laptop, downgraded (Upgraded) from Windows 8.1 to Windows 7 Pro, where I have Siemens Step 7 V5.5 pro, AB ControlLogix 19 and up plus a a lot of Rockwell tools and B&R Automation studio.

Plus all the other bells & Whistles like USB/Serial and other tools, not really giving me any problems.

 

[Operaghost]

I wouldn't discount a laptop for not having a real RS232 port. There are so few choices any more. The USB adapters these days are nearly flawless. A "tough" unit though is a good reason for the Toughbook. I use Dell's but I don't require an industrial unit.

If compatibility is an issue (old software) then you are likely better off with a machine running 32-bit Windows. But that negates any RAM memory over 4GB.

In my experience, newer RA software runs fine in 64-bit, but older software may not work. But, if you have an older revision, it might not be compatible.

For all the RA software I use/used to use, the only one I ran into issues with was RSView32. It is not, and it appears never will be, 64-bit capable.

OG

 

[becs]

Hi Becs

Well spliting your software out on 3 laptops may or maynot be a good solution, I prefer everything loaded on the same, I use a 64bit laptop, downgraded (Upgraded) from Windows 8.1 to Windows 7 Pro, where I have Siemens Step 7 V5.5 pro, AB ControlLogix 19 and up plus a a lot of Rockwell tools and B&R Automation studio.

Plus all the other bells & Whistles like USB/Serial and other tools, not really giving me any problems.

I prefer the idea of keeping everything on the same laptop too, but it's becoming impractical with the older laptops we're been using.

We just renewed our software agreement with AB and I've been upgrading our software to work with Windows 7. Our Siemens stuff also needs to be upgraded too, but I'm the only one that ever works with it in the plant and using it through my virtual machine is okay.

I wish I could just get rid of the really old stuff that needs to be run on Windows XP, but there's always equipment coming and going in this plant and I never know what junk will be in on the next machine.

 

[xC0MMAND0x]

64bit Windows 7 and run VMware Workstation with 32bit XP VMs for older software.

USB --> RS232 adapter - tie into VMs if needed/as needed.

All software installed on 1 single unit.

I use Dell because they are really fast on part turn-around time and support.

We have ~ 50 Engineers with High performance precision workstation laptops (newer ones with 32 GB RAM, 1TB HD, Quad core i7 Processor) - works for everything.

 

[JesperMP]

I say: Get some uptodate and performant good quality standard laptops.
Dont get just 1, get at least 2.
Update all you software to run on Win7 64 bit.
The few softwares that cannot run on Win7 64 bit, run it in VMs for the OS they require.
Replace the laptops every 2 years.

If you have some ancient software that absolutely cannot run in a VM, then retain the old laptops, for the unlikely case that you will actually need them.

 

[Operaghost]

Remember post #1, OP didn't want to go with VMs even though it would be an "ideal solution". I think we all agree that virtual machines are best, but the OP is asking for suggestions that don't use VMs.

OG

 

[ASF]

I'm with Jesper. While it might be too much of a stretch to put everything on VM's, giving them just one VM for the old stuff might be a gentle way to introduce them to it. A plant I used to work at introduced some old school electricians to VM's that way - they made it nice and easy, created the VM elsewhere and just put VM player on the programming machine. So they didn't have to go in and configure the VM anyhow, all they had to do was click the icon on the desktop to open up a different Windows with their older programming software.

I've always separated AB and Siemens (for that matter I've separated AB and everything else) because too often I've found they don't play nice with each other. You'll have a driver in Linx hogging a serial port even though it's not using it, and Siemens won't know why, it'll just say "I don't have a serial port". Easy for an engineer to diagnose but for the old school electrician, not so much. They're not going to see that message in Siemens and go looking at Linx to fix it.

I've got no problems running things on 64 bit W7. Occasionally I run into an old apa file that needs to be converted, so I have a 32 bit VM on standby to convert them for me. But again, that doesn't need to be something your electricians can do, on the rare occasion they come across them, fire up your VM, convert it, and hand it back to them.

And one last piece of advice - whatever laptop you get, get it without an OS and install it yourself. I recently set up a pair of redundant FTView servers, and the IT department supplied the machines. They were Lenovo machines, and they came with so many friggin Super Lenovo Smart Tools To Optimise Your Machine Performance And Automatically Scan All The Time And Free Anti Virus Trial Software And Download As Many Updates As Possible As Often As Possible and well, that it going to f*** your programming software right up. I spent a good couple of hours trying to find and kill all of the stupid unneccesary **** on those machines, in hindsight I should have just formatted the thing and started from scratch.

 

[dYoast]

Dell still has the E-Legacy port adapter. It provides a real serial port.

I have used it on two different model Dells and have no problems.

 

[xC0MMAND0x]

Remember post #1, OP didn't want to go with VMs even though it would be an "ideal solution". I think we all agree that virtual machines are best, but the OP is asking for suggestions that don't use VMs.

OG

It's just hard to come up with a solution that DOESN'T use VMs. The technology is there - use it. Why wouldn't you use some of the most powerful tools?

No disrespect to the OP and I'm sure you have your reasons, but to me it's like, "Let me build this house without using any power tools". Why? The tools are there, use them!

VirtualBox is a free Type-II hypervisor - and it works very well, if licensing is a concern.

Otherwise, I wonder if using XP Mode on Windows 7 might fulfill you needs. - perhaps take a look at the requirements of that.

 

[Badger]

"Let me build this house without using any power tools".
But if you are building Mud Hut's....?

 

[xC0MMAND0x]

Good point, Badger.

But, I'm all about the right tool for the job.

In a mixed controls environment with different hardware and software platforms being used and needed to be setup, I think the virtualization is in fact the right tool.

 

[Badger]

You are right mate, I was not having a go at you just parodying some of the archaic stuff we sometimes have to deal with.

 

[FactoryTalktotheHand]

Native RS232 will give you fewer problems than a USB-RS232 converter generally. The reason is, not all USB adapters are created equal. Some have certain features that 232 comms need and others don't. I've used the Keyspan brand adapter with good luck.

But the main reason I like native RS232 is the fact that it always stays on the same COM port. I know it's minor to figure out which port the USB adapter grabbed this time, but it's an annoyance I prefer to live without. It's nice always having COM1 be COM1. I don't have native RS232 but I do have a port replicator that plugs into my dock connector that works just as well, so if you go with the Dell, insist on a port replicator.

I use Rockwell software routinely on 64-bit. They've advanced far enough to where it isn't a problem anymore. The only cause for concern would be if you're using very old PLCs that use DOS-based software like the SLC100/150 series. You can get it to work on Win7 64-bit if you install and configure DOSbox Megabuild (it MUST be the megabuild). But for basic RSLogix 500 type stuff, it runs fine on 64-bit.

Get at least 8 GB of RAM.

 

[Operaghost]

......But the main reason I like native RS232 is the fact that it always stays on the same COM port.

Exactly. Plug into a different USB port and it can take a different COM port. That was always annoying, but I understand the reasoning.

OG