Noob guide for Siemens MicroBox PC?

[strantor]

Hi. I've artfully avoided Siemens for a whole decade but now it's inescapable. I'm trying to figure out what software is needed to support new-ish (2017) machinery containing Siemens Microbox PC IPC427D (6AG4140-3EL04-0HN0), Flat Panel IFP1500 (6AV7863-2TB10-0AA0), ET200SP I/O, and ET200M I/O. And how it all works together. I have an old laptop with Step7 5.5 SP1 and WinCC Flexible 2005. I doubt that's going to help me.

It's my understanding that the MicroBox PC runs a software PLC* within(?) or beside(?) the Windows Embedded operating system, independent of the operating system, and also runs WinCC HMI runtime** for the flat panel touchscreen. So the HMI is not programmed physically separately from the PLC. Is that correct?

*per the P/N [ N ], the SW PLC is WinAC RTX2010 F (Failsafe)?
**per the P/N, "Software Configuration preinstalled Bundles contains WinCC RT Advanced V13 / Professional V13"

So now I wonder, do you still program the SW PLC within the Microbox, from a separate laptop with Siemens programming software installed? Or do you just connect a keyboard and monitor to the Microbox and program it directly? I assume it's still via laptop, but just want to confirm.

It's my understanding that WinAC RTX2010 is still programmed via Step 7, so I won't need to purchase the new TIA Portal software. Is that correct? Can I update my old Step7 5.5 to talk to this setup?

I've tried (and still trying) to answer my own questions with Siemens documentation, but... and this is a large part of the reason I avoided it so long... The documentation, or the structure of it, is not at all intuitive to me. There are plenty of high-level resources like marketing brochures (totally unhelpful) and low-level ultra-technical documents, but I can't find anything in the middle, or anything that bridges the gaps between products and explains how they work together. I don't expect to be spoon fed a bunch of answers to a bunch of questions here, but if someone could just link a Siemens doc that would be helpful for someone asking the kind of questions I'm asking, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[mk42]

Oof, this is not the system you probably want to start your Siemens journey on. Good luck!


I'm not saying any of the products below are bad, but PC based systems add a layer of complication on top of the already LARGE first step to Siemens.

Hi. I've artfully avoided Siemens for a whole decade but now it's inescapable. I'm trying to figure out what software is needed to support new-ish (2017) machinery containing Siemens Microbox PC IPC427D (6AG4140-3EL04-0HN0), Flat Panel IFP1500 (6AV7863-2TB10-0AA0), ET200SP I/O, and ET200M I/O. And how it all works together. I have an old laptop with Step7 5.5 SP1 and WinCC Flexible 2005. I doubt that's going to help me.

Your old software will count for something. It's cheaper to get an upgrade license than a fresh new license.

It's my understanding that the MicroBox PC runs a software PLC* within(?) or beside(?) the Windows Embedded operating system, independent of the operating system, and also runs WinCC HMI runtime** for the flat panel touchscreen. So the HMI is not programmed physically separately from the PLC. Is that correct?

Sounds about right, so far. For the record, the SW PLC is still real-time/deterministic/etc, just like the traditional HW PLCs. It is programmed 99% just like a normal S7-300, with a few extra possibilities to take advantage of the PC based nature.

So now I wonder, do you still program the SW PLC within the Microbox, from a separate laptop with Siemens programming software installed? Or do you just connect a keyboard and monitor to the Microbox and program it directly? I assume it's still via laptop, but just want to confirm.

You program the SW PLC in Step 7. It COULD be located on the same PC, or it could be located elsewhere. You can download to the PLC via Ethernet or Profibus, depending on what HW the PC has (I didn't check).

*per the P/N [ N ], the SW PLC is WinAC RTX2010 F (Failsafe)?
**per the P/N, "Software Configuration preinstalled Bundles contains WinCC RT Advanced V13 / Professional V13"

It's my understanding that WinAC RTX2010 is still programmed via Step 7, so I won't need to purchase the new TIA Portal software. Is that correct? Can I update my old Step7 5.5 to talk to this setup?

WinAC RTX is supported by both Simatic Manager and TIA Portal. I'd strongly recommend the Simatic Manager route (Step 7 v5.5/5.6, not Step 7 V15). You might to upgrade from v5.5 to v5.6, depending on what service packs/updates are installed on WinAC RTX (essentially "what firmware is the PLC?").



If it is using WinCC V13 Runtime, then that is in Portal. You need to buy WinCC Advanced V15 (engineering, not runtime), which will still activate the WinCC V13 you actually need to install to open and edit the project.

I've tried (and still trying) to answer my own questions with Siemens documentation, but... and this is a large part of the reason I avoided it so long... The documentation, or the structure of it, is not at all intuitive to me. There are plenty of high-level resources like marketing brochures (totally unhelpful) and low-level ultra-technical documents, but I can't find anything in the middle, or anything that bridges the gaps between products and explains how they work together. I don't expect to be spoon fed a bunch of answers to a bunch of questions here, but if someone could just link a Siemens doc that would be helpful for someone asking the kind of questions I'm asking, I would greatly appreciate it.

In general, Siemens manuals are more of a reference manual. They are essentially written to remind someone who USED TO know the answer to something. If you don't even know the question yet, it can be a struggle if you don't have anyone to guide you.



There are a fair number of Application Notes that can be more accessible. They sometimes cover what I'll call a "light" system approach where they may address multiple products simultaneously, but only on a specific and very narrow topic.



All that said, the hotline is pretty good, and they can get you going or provide a much needed sanity check.

 

[JesperMP]

So it is an existing machine with PLC and HMI programs made by someone else.
That is normally a tough call, but in this case extra hard because of WinAC RTX and possibly safety trown in as well.
Do you have the source files for the PLC and HMI programs ? That will tell you what software packages are needed.
If you dont have backup(s) of the source program(s), then I do not think you should mess with the programs yourself but get support from the original vendor of the machine.

 

[strantor]

Oof, this is not the system you probably want to start your Siemens journey on. Good luck!

I'm not saying any of the products below are bad, but PC based systems add a layer of complication on top of the already LARGE first step to Siemens.

Your old software will count for something. It's cheaper to get an upgrade license than a fresh new license.

Sounds about right, so far. For the record, the SW PLC is still real-time/deterministic/etc, just like the traditional HW PLCs. It is programmed 99% just like a normal S7-300, with a few extra possibilities to take advantage of the PC based nature.

You program the SW PLC in Step 7. It COULD be located on the same PC, or it could be located elsewhere. You can download to the PLC via Ethernet or Profibus, depending on what HW the PC has (I didn't check).

WinAC RTX is supported by both Simatic Manager and TIA Portal. I'd strongly recommend the Simatic Manager route (Step 7 v5.5/5.6, not Step 7 V15). You might to upgrade from v5.5 to v5.6, depending on what service packs/updates are installed on WinAC RTX (essentially "what firmware is the PLC?").

If it is using WinCC V13 Runtime, then that is in Portal. You need to buy WinCC Advanced V15 (engineering, not runtime), which will still activate the WinCC V13 you actually need to install to open and edit the project.

In general, Siemens manuals are more of a reference manual. They are essentially written to remind someone who USED TO know the answer to something. If you don't even know the question yet, it can be a struggle if you don't have anyone to guide you.

There are a fair number of Application Notes that can be more accessible. They sometimes cover what I'll call a "light" system approach where they may address multiple products simultaneously, but only on a specific and very narrow topic.


All that said, the hotline is pretty good, and they can get you going or provide a much needed sanity check.

Thank you for the information! Why do you recommend simatic manager over TIA portal? Just because I already have it? Or because it's actually better?

 

[strantor]

So it is an existing machine with PLC and HMI programs made by someone else.
That is normally a tough call, but in this case extra hard because of WinAC RTX and possibly safety trown in as well.
Do you have the source files for the PLC and HMI programs ? That will tell you what software packages are needed.
If you dont have backup(s) of the source program(s), then I do not think you should mess with the programs yourself but get support from the original vendor of the machine.

yes, Several existing machines. I do not have the source files yet. I am in my first week at this job. Previously I was self employed and this was my customer. I designed systems for them based on other PLC manufacturers, not Siemens. When I was self employed, I would not claim to support Siemens. Now that I'm not, I'm expected to design more (non-Siemens) systems, and support existing systems, which turns out to be mostly Siemens and mostly this IPC stuff. So I must learn it or I'm not doing my job. I have nobody here to teach me. I am the one and only "PLC guy."

The original vendor is in Germany. Every time something goes wrong that can't be diagnosed over the internet, they fly some guy from overseas. Very expensive. The expectation is that now that I'm here, that will not happen so often (eventually never). My employer is aware I am not Siemens-fluent and I expect there will be a little bit of forgiveness.

 

[strantor]

I obtained a trial version of TIA portal V15 from the Siemens website. My goal is to see if I can upload a program from one of the machines. I do not want to encourage my employer to purchase software if I can't even use it because source is protected. So #1 I need to connect. Done. #2 upload. #3 verify source not protected. Or, try to obtain password from OEM. #4 if OEM will share password, purchase Siemens software.

I was able to find the device on the ethernet network and I choose "upload device as new station" and I get the following error: "the selected object WinLC RTX [IP Addr.] Cannot be uploaded from the device." Is the upload perhaps blocked by source protection? Or is my setup wrong? In the "online access" menu I can see the folder of the contents of the PLC and there are many many program blocks. When double click any of them I get a password entry dialog. So I am sure it is quite locked down, but I'm not sure if that is the reason for my inability to upload. With Omron I could still upload a password protected program but I had to enter the password offline to view the contents of the individual program files.

 

[JRW]

I haven’t read all the above posts....
But the OEM won’t give you the program?

 

[strantor]

I haven’t read all the above posts....
But the OEM won’t give you the program?

I just asked today. No response yet. OEM is German. In my experience, at least half the time European OEMs treat PLC programs like software code. Everything is their IP and they are not keen on sharing it just like Adobe won't share the source code for Acrobat. But we will see.

 

[strantor]

Aaand as I suspected: no. They will not share the programs. They are offering to sell us password protected backup files in case we have to replace the IPC or PLC one of our machines. Not even that is free.

 

[mk42]

Thank you for the information! Why do you recommend simatic manager over TIA portal? Just because I already have it? Or because it's actually better?

1) Partially based on an assumption that the project is already in Simatic Manager. Migration to Portal is usually more trouble than it is worth, partly because you can't migrate back.



2) Partially based on the fact that while I actually like TIA Portal better than Simatic Manager, there just isn't that much support out there for Portal + 300. It's officially possible, and I'm sure Siemens has published some stories about how great the combo is, but I think they unofficially don't recommend it. At the least, when you're reading forums and things like that trying to sort everything out, everyone assumes that you're using the old software for the old PLCs, and the new software only for the new PLCs. You'll have a heck of a time sorting through the bad info for the useful stuff.

 

[strantor]

1) Partially based on an assumption that the project is already in Simatic Manager. Migration to Portal is usually more trouble than it is worth, partly because you can't migrate back.



2) Partially based on the fact that while I actually like TIA Portal better than Simatic Manager, there just isn't that much support out there for Portal + 300. It's officially possible, and I'm sure Siemens has published some stories about how great the combo is, but I think they unofficially don't recommend it. At the least, when you're reading forums and things like that trying to sort everything out, everyone assumes that you're using the old software for the old PLCs, and the new software only for the new PLCs. You'll have a heck of a time sorting through the bad info for the useful stuff.

So maybe my inability to upload the program is due to the PLC being programmed in Simatic Manager and I'm trying to upload using TIA Portal? Maybe I would have more success using Simatic Manager?

 

[parky]

If I remember correctly, the older hardware is not supported in TIA. In this case S7 400.
I remember having to upgrade S7 as V5.3 would not work on Win7 so I plumped for TIA as this was the latest, however found that although you could go on-line to the old hardware & monitor it you could not change the program.
So had to order S7 V5.5 and they would not take back the TIA as it had been opened, an expensive mistake.

 

[JesperMP]

You cannot do an upload anyway without the password.

 

[JesperMP]

If I remember correctly, the older hardware is not supported in TIA. In this case S7 400.

S7-300/400 is supported in TIA. But generally only the very latest hardware versions. So to migrate from v5.x you would have to use v5.x to convert to the latest HW versions, do a consistency check, and only then can you migrate to a TIA S7-300/400 project.

I remember having to upgrade S7 as V5.3 would not work on Win7 so I plumped for TIA as this was the latest, however found that although you could go on-line to the old hardware & monitor it you could not change the program.

Probably because it needed the program to be loaded completely (HW as well as SW) from TIA. And then you need to migrate first, with the problems described above.

That is why most people chose to stay with v5x when supporting existing S7-300/400 systems.

 

[parky]

It probably is password protected but I believe if it is not it may not even upload in TIA if older hardware, I know there is some problem it certainly will not let you change & download.