OT - Buy only what you need

[geniusintraining]

What to do about the whole thing ?
Tripple the gas taxes !
It will not cost you a penny !!
Why ?
Because the governments increased revenue on oil taxes can be used to reduce other taxes. Taxes on work for example.
The result will be that the average citicen will have the same amount of money in his hand, but he will have a STRONG incentive to spend less oil or gas. Take enough time and it will result in a significant reduction in your consumption.
In my country high taxes on energy is accepted because everybody understands that it is the only way to prepare for the future.

Look at other countries that have tried that, that has not worked, gas has tripled for me in the last 8 years, but I drive further, if taxes go up the only thing we will get is a bigger government and that is not the answer, alternative fuels is the answer, I don't have a problem with the oil companies, if they put a price on it and we pay it then its not their problem it's mine for being to damn dependent on it in the first place.

 

[kamenges]

We (US citizens) talk about our energy needs due to distance as if it is some inevitable result of where we live. It isn't. It's a cultural choice.

I'm sure the Germans, English and Japanese didn't start living vertically by choice. This is forced upon them by their population / area ratio. That being said it doesn't change the fact that we in the US don't live vertically simply because we don't want to. We have the available area so we use it. There is no requirement that we use it. We could live much more tightly coupled than we do (geographically) but we choose not to.

With the exception of plchacker's business travel case we in the US don't have a built-in excuse for our energy use. I'm not being holier-than-thou here. I live 25 miles from work simply because I like to live there. There are houses on the market less than a mile from where I work all the time. However, I'm also not deluded enough to think that my level of energy usage is a basic quality of the country I live in. It is a personal choice.

Keith

 

[plchacker]

By the way, I've finally been able to get my own hard-core Republican brother in Florida to see the error of his previous ways...

He has to be a transplant. Damn yankee, compaird to yankee. But then, Florida, is the only Southern state with a Northern accent.

There are deep segregations in Florida. The Panhandle area is much more Southern than the part where citizens can't seem to operate a voting machine.

If anything needed to die, it should be that damned "the South shall rise again" *******! .

We already have. Caught you when you weren't looking. Just keep your silly taxes/laws/spending to yourself. You may visit, but we'll do just fine if you stay out of our politics. That is the true American spirit. Care for some Boston tea? Betcha that tea party would take place in Mobile Bay, rather than Boston Harbour if it were to happen today.

There is a lot to be said for God, Guns, Guts and Glory compaired to Tax, Spend, Whine and Complain.

 

[SAK-CO TECH]

We (US citizens) talk about our energy needs due to distance as if it is some inevitable result of where we live. It isn't. It's a cultural choice.

I will have to disagree with this somewhat. Obviously, those of us in business do what we have to do. I moved a little over a year ago to Riverside County (half way between Los Angeles and San Diego Counties) because not only did we like the house but primarily it is the half way point between Mexico and the outlying cities of Los Angeles of which I do extensive business throughout So Cal and Mexico.

This afternoon I meet with a client in Simi Valley (120 miles away) and tomorrow, I go to client in Tijuana, Mexico (90 miles away). This is the norm for doing business here and other parts of the country in the USA.

Regarding the fact that it is a "cultural choice"... for many, many families here (at least in the So Cal area) is simply not true. The price of real estate here (I dont have to tell many of you how 'out of sight' real estate is here in So Cal), prohibits many of the less 'well to do' from being able to move closer to thier places of work. Yes, they could sell thier homes or rent closer to work and pay double or more what they are paying now. Many middle class folks here are barely making it as it is. I suppose that these people could move to a more affordable area (State) but what about jobs?

I will agree that we make our own choices but certainly those choices narrow when you are raising families.

As has been said before, do something to improve your situation. I for one, will be switching my trucks to diesel soon. I have a little incentive here as I am presently helping an associate design a Bio-Diesel plant which can take just about any oil you can think of (Corn, Palm, Soy, etc.) and process diesel fuel.

Chris

 

[Ken M]

From recent threads it appears that travel is regarded as being apparently related to population density. Low density raises the need to travel autonomously and expensively, whereas high density encourages the provision of public transport systems as a more economical but more co-dependent way of travel. This holds true in comparisons between high and low density countries e.g. according to Wikipedia the US has an average of 30 people per sq.mile and the UK has 243. Jesper's Denmark scores 126.

(Of course, as with all averages, these figures hide various extremes. The US average rises considerably if you take out a couple of states like Alaska, Wyoming or Colorado. And even in the 'crowded' UK my mother had to be flown to hospital when I presented myself as a difficult birth all these years ago as the nearest hospital was more than 4 hours away by road.)

Anyway the same comparisons are true within countries. High density areas (cities or states) versus low density rural show the same characteristics.

But this is all based on the assumption that we need to travel at all. Isn't this very forum an example of how we don't need to meet to interact any longer? Will eventual developments mean that travel requirements will become a simple matter of personal preference and budget? And ultimately travel will become the prerogative of the rich.

Things come and go with time and prices. In Dickens' time oysters were one of the staple foods of the poorest underclasses in London. Maybe we should all be really glad we can travel now when we want to. Who knows what our descendants will think of us for using all the oil.

Regards

Ken

 

[Andy S]

I'm not sure where you came up with 210 quads production. The section headed "Total Energy and Efficiency of Use" has production of 70.3 quads and consupmtion of 99.7 quads making us a net importer of energy.

Further down the same page under the section headed "World (2003)" is confirmation of JesperMP's numbers on per capita consumption. The United States uses 340 million BTUs per capita compared to 173 million for Germany and 176 million for Japan.

To me that implies a tremendous business opportunity. The standard of living in both Germany and Japan is comparable to that in the United States. Those two countries are proof of the potential for substantial improvements in efficiency without substantial decline in living standards. They are getting a lot more bang for their energy buck than we are. If they can do it, why can't we?

I agree Steve, and I’m sure that geniusintraining now realises that his figures were totally incorrect. I personally thought that everyone with a hole in their arse knew that the US imports more oil that it produces.

I’ve found a link that gives simple confirmation which I encourage all of you to have a look at even though the data is based on May 2004 figures.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=393251

geniusintraining.

I have no intention on insulting anyone, but this "we can outsmart the oilcompanies" idea is fooling one self only. The reason for the increasing oil prices is obvious.

It doesnt matter if you are a net importer or exporter. The point is that the price of oil is decided by supply and demand. And one single consumer in the world demands a lot more than all the others in relative terms.

How much oil did my country produce ? Enough to be selfsupported !
Yes, we have a significant oil production from the north sea.
Even so we are discussing if we should try to save a little of the precious drops for the next generation.
But all that is beyond the point.

What to do about the whole thing ?
Tripple the gas taxes !
It will not cost you a penny !!
Why ?
Because the governments increased revenue on oil taxes can be used to reduce other taxes. Taxes on work for example.
The result will be that the average citicen will have the same amount of money in his hand, but he will have a STRONG incentive to spend less oil or gas. Take enough time and it will result in a significant reduction in your consumption.
In my country high taxes on energy is accepted because everybody understands that it is the only way to prepare for the future.

Like JesperMP, we also pay a high price for fuel due to government tax on every litre of petrol sold here in the UK, which is why the current market volatility has not affected our price rises as much as in the US (as the massive tax rate helps “shield” the UK consumer from the current market rises).

And although I agree strongly with JasperMP that all of us need to become less dependably on oil and the car, I do however understand that in the US, the UK and many other countries around the world, people do travel because they want to and because they live where they choose. So weaning them away from their cars is not going to be easy, a point eloquently made by kamenges in an earlier post.

In the UK the current levels of petrol prices are beginning to have an affect on the economy. For example Peugeot, the French car maker has recently announced the closure of it’s Coventry car plant due to “uneconomical costs”, basically their suppliers for a new model of car are all located in France and therefore it’s apparently more efficient to build a new model at an existing French manufacturing facility due to freight, petrol and other logistical costs despite the fact that the previous model was built successfully in the UK for years.

So I agree that high taxes makes you think more about whether your car journey is absolutely necessary but we also must realise that our economies would shrink without a trace if individually fuel prices became too high and “uneconomical” for foreign investment and our own exporters.

should we step back and not help everyone?, should we not be the first to jump to the aid of other countries when they need help?, you tell me what is your country doing? Are you going to take care of Iran ?, how many other countries are going to spill there blood to save others?

Your right, cause it’s worth spilling blood for, they all need our help don’t they? They probably just don’t know it yet? We can save the world from living how they want to and show them that our way is best! But let’s not get too carried away. We’ll only go for those countries that are sitting on top of mass oil reserves. That way, and in time we can sell them our hummers and they can of course sell us their oil at knock down prices so that we can fill ours full to the brim and get further than the local store, yipppeeeee! Well surely that’s what true friends are for?

We need to compare apples for apples, My house is just under 5,000 square ft heating it and lighting it cost more then someone that has 1,000 square ft, I live on 50 acres the closest store is 4 miles down the road, I can’t just skip down the road..Now back to the "comparable standard of living"

In regards to this “comparable standard of living” nonsense, then if all that means is the ability to fill up a hummer for as little as possible or heat a 5,000 square ft house without no one holding you to account for the energy that you are using then “hands up” I’m as jealous as hell as it would cost me a fortune here in the UK, but I guess it just depends on your interpretation of the phrase?

 

[cntrlfrk]

I think another thing that I've seen in my lifetime (I'm under 40, but not much) is the mass transformation that has gone on in the rural areas. Growing up in a small town, 25 miles from a city, we had everything we needed, grocery, car sales, movie theatre, mechanics, appliance store, lumber yard etc... It didn't take long after the big chains started moving in to the 'nearby' city that the small town guys started dropping like flies. The whole 'I can get (hamburger, 2x4's, gas, TV's, etc...) for ______cents/dollars a lb/piece/gallon etc.. cheaper in the city.' rage destroyed the small town economy. Business shut down, and people started working in the city. So then people were driving 50+ miles a day for work, but they were saving a little on their goods purchased, once every one got used to it, it was nothing to jump in the car and drive 25, 35, 50 miles. What I'm starting to see more interest in now, is that 'Maybe it's worth paying a little more instead of driving 25 miles to get it' mentality and things are beginning to swing a little bit the other way and businesses are starting to sprout up. Basic Econ-101.


What also surprises me is the 'real-time' inventory that everyone uses. My local A-B rep doesn't carry hardly any inventory, but can get anything from Chicago (500 miles) in a day since they have a truck going back and forth daily. Like I said, it's basic Econ-101. If a mass producer can produce it cheaper, they can afford to ship it further, otherwise there is a distance at where it isn't economical to ship to anymore. But it seems wasteful to me.

A friend of mine drives a truck hauling hot-dogs from one of the local meat packing plants to Texas (800 miles each way), what is his return trip haul? Corn dogs. Doesn't seem to make alot of sense, but higher fuel prices may raise prices, but it will also open up new markets and new innovations.

Economics 101.

Well, I gotta get busy on my corn dog factory.

 

[kamenges]

Originally posted by SAK-CO TECH:
The price of real estate here (I dont have to tell many of you how 'out of sight' real estate is here in So Cal), prohibits many of the less 'well to do' from being able to move closer to thier places of work.

I am making an assumption here since I don't play in the SoCal real estate market. But if it is anything like the market here in Wisconsin, the expensive residential real estate is not in the industrial areas. I have to suspect that, with the obvious exception of domestic labor, that most of the 'less well-to-do' individuals work blue collar jobs in industrial areas. One would think the residential real estate in those areas would be a relative bargain.

That aside, cultural choices tend to drive infrastructure. It's a bit of a Catch-22. We won't, in general, begin to live geographically tighter because there are very few good quality high density residential areas to move into. And there won't be because, currently, no one wants those. One of the reasons I live 25 miles from my place of work is because my father lived 20 miles from his place of work. My wife, who was born and raised in a city, thought I was nuts for living so far from where I work. Now she can't see living in a city anymore. If we have no reason to pack in more tightly we won't.

Keith

 

[geniusintraining]

I agree Steve, and I’m sure that geniusintraining now realises that his figures were totally incorrect. I personally thought that everyone with a hole in their arse knew that the US imports more oil that it produces.

Andy if you would pull your head out of your own *** then you would of saw my reply back, here read it I said I was wrong, but we also were refering to energy, you are to closed mind to see that.

Like JesperMP, we also pay a high price for fuel due to government tax on every litre of petrol sold here in the UK, which is why the current market volatility has not affected our price rises as much as in the US (as the massive tax rate helps “shield” the UK consumer from the current market rises)..

If the UK is so good and the US is such a bad place to live then why are there so many people trying to get here. Why are they not try to break down your boarders and life there?

And although I agree strongly with JasperMP that all of us need to become less dependably on oil and the car, I do however understand that in the US, the UK and many other countries around the world, people do travel because they want to and because they live where they choose. So weaning them away from their cars is not going to be easy, a point eloquently made by kamenges in an earlier post.)..

I agree

Your right, cause it’s worth spilling blood for, they all need our help don’t they? They probably just don’t know it yet? We can save the world from living how they want to and show them that our way is best! But let’s not get too carried away. We’ll only go for those countries that are sitting on top of mass oil reserves. That way, and in time we can sell them our hummers and they can of course sell us their oil at knock down prices so that we can fill ours full to the brim and get further than the local store, yipppeeeee! Well surely that’s what true friends are for?.

You (your country) were there too correct? so just because they had oil? means we should not help?, look what the US has done (and others), we do need to help and we do. But when someone singles out the US then, I have to defend my country, I would expect you to do the same for your's.

 

[cjh]

Your right, cause it’s worth spilling blood for, they all need our help don’t they? They probably just don’t know it yet? We can save the world from living how they want to and show them that our way is best! But let’s not get too carried away. We’ll only go for those countries that are sitting on top of mass oil reserves. That way, and in time we can sell them our hummers and they can of course sell us their oil at knock down prices so that we can fill ours full to the brim and get further than the local store, yipppeeeee! Well surely that’s what true friends are for?

Please...that's a ridiculous notion. If we were fighting there for the oil, how come we are paying such high prices for the oil we consume?
The fact is that we went into Iraq to take out a mad dictator that has been threatening us for over a decade. Never mind the fact that he has been funding terrorist training for years. Never mind the fact that he has killed more people than Hitler.
He was and has been threatening us for a long time and it is the job of any nation's leader to defend their country against threats at home and abroad. History has shown that Hussein is not just a talker. Like I said above, he has killed a lot of people.

I certainly don't agree with all of President Bush's policies but this is one area where he did what he was supposed to do according to the Constitution of our nation.

 

[SAK-CO TECH]

Keith,

I hear you , my wife and I feel very much the same way. It's one of the reasons we moved to our present location. Our house is on a 1/2 acre (this is fairly big by So Cal standards) and I have an 1800 s.f. shop on my property. We could not be happier but we are fortunate that we had the ability to do this.

Regarding property values here, take one of my brother in-laws for example. He lives in an area of Los Angeles county. His neiborhood is over 50 years old, and has been gang invested for the last 15 years. His house is 1500 s.f.. They live next to the City of Industry (a heavy industrial section of Los Angeles County). His house has been appraised at $465,000. If you could see this neiborhood, your jaw would hit the ground from shock. One might say, "Well, that's a lot of money!" but... let's say you sell your house, to move to a 'better' location in the Los Angeles area, you will pay through the nose so that put's someone in his position in the "same boat" or worse. Emagine someone new to the area or just starting out. Rent values here are getting about as bad. As a matter-of-fact, the affordability index here, the last I heard, is below 17%.

Yes, he could move out of state and put some money in the bank but his job of 20+ years is here. This is a common scenario for many folks in So Cal but the newer families are having a hard time of it as you could imagine.

Chris

 

[Togadude]

Interesting thread....IMO I think high gas prices are good. I forget who said it..."necessity is the mother of invention."

Without the need for alternative energy, most would sit back and guzzle up all the cheap gas untill the last drop was gone. Then say "ohhh man, i guess we should of found a different way."

Gas here in NY is over $3.00 a gallon, I say double it, make it $6 a gallon! That will get the ball rolling. People need to stop thinking about today, and start looking at tomorrow.

 

[grs]

Go Oilers!!!

 

[krk]

....Gas here in NY is over $3.00 a gallon, I say double it, make it $6 a gallon!

Current price here at some service stations is just under the equivalent of $10 per gallon....

 

[Andy S]

Hello and sorry geniusintraining, as I did know that you had posted a previous correction. It’s just I feel that your earlier posts were misguided and unfair, especially towards JesperMP from Copenhagen. If you look back at the post he wasn’t attacking the US, just making a point regarding the energy/oil usage within the US.

And I’m sure this was only intended as a constructive comment designed to help the debate of the originally posters topic about fuel prices and how often you should fill up with gas. It’s a shame that you took this as an attack on you and your country.

Also please forgive me for my sarcasm towards your Iraq War comments but I find it laughable that you blatantly criticise governments of other countries, just because they don’t share the view of the current US Administration. At the end of the day the rights and wrongs of this are for each of us to have our own opinion on.

And cjh to answer your question - I’m afraid that this is precisely why you are paying high prices for oil – uncertainty in the market, due to the current mess that’s the Middle East. The instability in this region at present has caused volatility and therefore price fluctuations in the market. But I do agree with you that it was never intended to turn out this way. I’m sure that both of our leaders would love to have had a crystal ball and seen all of this coming.

As for the evil dictator Saddam, OK hardly an angel but you may find some points in this article interesting, I’m not saying it’s correct but it undeniably offers a different take on things...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0422-20.htm

If the UK is so good and the US is such a bad place to live then why are there so many people trying to get here. Why are they not try to break down your boarders and life there?

Finally I never implied that the UK was better than the US in any way whatsoever. I was trying to explain our fuel tax system, something that others on this forum may not have been aware of and may have found interesting. Please see krk’s recent post as to what we are currently paying in the UK if you doubt this.

And secondly, and I can’t understand for the life of me why but you seem to be completely unaware that immigration is a major issue for many countries in the western world and has been a high profile issue in the UK for some time now. The UK, Australia, France, Germany, Switzerland, Spain and no doubt Jesper’s Denmark to name a few all have immigration issues, with people in your words trying to “break down the boarders” and live there. So forgive my frustration of your comments that the rest of the world ONLY wants to live in the US and that the UK does not have immigration issues.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2173792.stm


But I do fully agree with you that like it or not alternative energy and more fuel-efficient cars are the way forward. And maybe the great irony is that the war in Iraq and resulting volatility in the oil market has helped convince others like us of this.


Thanks, Andrew