PC based HMI software

[JaxGTO]

If I was able to do a plant from scratch I would use only thin clients. PCs on the floor are always a problem when they get out of date.

 

[Phrog30]

If I was able to do a plant from scratch I would use only thin clients. PCs on the floor are always a problem when they get out of date.

I've never seen that as a problem. I have customers with PCs just as old as panelviews. Still running the same as the first day.

 

[LadderLogic]

If advanced SCADA features are not required but just a good old HMI with crisp graphics, tons of drivers for virtually every controller in the world and no scripting, the good old Pro-face works fine. The Windows version is called WinGP and the runtime license costs about $1500.

It may be a cool thing to write short scripts for ButtonPush and ButtonRelease events, but a button object that just does it for you (and never ever remains "stuck"!) is all most people need.

Now, it your customers want to be able to use Windows domain security, then this is not the system for you.

 

[busarider29]

An extension of a Microsoft product that only runs on Win 7 or 10 natively?

To answer the OP, +1 Ignition. Truly cross-platform (Windows, Mac Linux, with Perspective mobile), Inductive University to learn, great forum, 2 hr grace period fully-featured trial (reset as often as you need), perks for Integrators. Run it on a Pi, or a headless Linux server. Call me biased, but IMO it's the best that's out there.

Ok, I agree, you're biased. But possibly I am too.

Yes, as of this writing, the TC HMI server is installed on a Windows system, but I believe it can also be installed on FreeBSD OS. As far as I know, the TC HMI server cannot be installed on Mac OS. However, other than very exceptional cases, who in the hell is using a Mac as an HMI server on the production floor, or anywhere in the plant?? That's just not common. Is not being able to have the HMI server on a Mac OS really a deal breaker or is that just cherry picking?

Described above, that is the TC HMI server side of it briefly. But, all connections/sessions to the TC HMI server can be from any platform that has a browser installed (Chrome or Edge) - phones, tablets, PC's, laptops, etc.

I don't have any experience with Ignition, so I cannot give an opinion on it in terms of it's functionality and what is possible with it (base package without any add-on modules).
However, I do know that it can be expensive. That's one of the common things I hear about it - "It's expensive". Also, from screen shots of Ignition HMI's and it's controls, my opinion is that it looks like just another Industrial HMI with more of the same. Whereas TC HMI looks much more new and modern. Might not be a make-or-break thing for some folks, but it certainly carries some weight. Also, with TC HMI, you can create your own custom controls to go on the screens and not just custom graphics. You can also download user-created functions and controls for TC HMI via NuGet, for free. Some of these functions are similar in scope to what you have to pay for in some Ignition modules.

TC HMI is a very new product. I believe its only been available for one or two years now. However, there is a lot there for being so new, with updates 2-4 times yearly. I just downloaded and installed the latest update and there were three (3) new controls included by Beckhoff. ​

I have an RFQ to Beckhoff right now to get an understanding of TC HMI pricing, then I'll report back here to this thread when I find out. Their pricing is based on "performance level" of the PC the server is installed on and the number of connections/sessions to it. Each Server license comes with one (1) local connection/session.

 

[Phrog30]

However, other than very exceptional cases, who in the hell is using a Mac as an HMI server on the production floor, or anywhere in the plant??

It's not so much Mac but Linux. And, there are quite a few using Linux.

However, I do know that it can be expensive. That's one of the common things I hear about it - "It's expensive".

Expensive compared to what? Most who say it's expensive have never used it and just go by the website and adding in all modules. It's never meant to compete with a C-More or PanelView, but there are options to get down to the price point of a PanelView.

But, there is more to cost than just software, there is development time. Even if Ignition costs more, you could justify the price with development savings.

Here is a link for an Ignition demo, Perspective.
https://onlinedemo.inductiveautomation.com/data/perspective/client/OnlineDemo
You can also download the demo project at the exchange,
https://inductiveautomation.com/exchange/

 

[busarider29]

It's not so much Mac but Linux. And, there are quite a few using Linux.

I understand on Linux (which is a Kernel, not a full-fledged OS). As stated in my previous post though, I'm almost certain TC HMI can be installed on FreeBSD, which is a full-fledged OS. Waiting to hear back from Beckhoff for confirmation. Having the HMI server on something other than Windows, I can understand certainly. But Mac OS?? Huh, who's doing that?

Expensive compared to what? Most who say it's expensive have never used it and just go by the website and adding in all modules. It's never meant to compete with a C-More or PanelView, but there are options to get down to the price point of a PanelView.

I don't know. It's just what I hear a lot when Ignition is mentioned. I visited their website and their pricing is listed there. For base package with one (1) session/connection and no add-on modules, it's $2350. That certainly seems pricey to me. We'll be able to compare it to TC HMI when I get Beckhoff's quote back, which may not be until after the first of the year as they are converting to a new SAP system right now here stateside.

But, there is more to cost than just software, there is development time. Even if Ignition costs more, you could justify the price with development savings.

This is true with some comparisons, but not all. You're implying that with other HMI software, there will be more development time involved?? In some cases, yes. In others, no. Depends on what you want or are trying to do. Can a developer create his/her own custom controls with Ignition or is he/she limited to what's available in the controls toolbox?

Here is a link to Beckhoff's HMI server via the cloud. Note: that entire page and everything in it was developed with TC HMI. When you click on the link, you are connecting to the HMI and interacting with it. Looks and feels like a modern web page, with modern navigation controls, etc. Just a taste of what's possible just on the visualization aspect of it. Not just another "same ole HMI" HMI

 

[Phrog30]

Just a taste of what's possible just on the visualization aspect of it. Not just another "same ole HMI" HMI

I don't think their demo is anything special. Matter of fact, it's quite bland in my opinion. But, that is just my opinion.

I don't think you will be won over by anything I say so I won't address your other questions. If you are interested you can contact IA sales. Ignition Edge is their product to compete for low budgets.

By the way, I don't consider Ignition a HMI. It is full blown SCADA that can scale to HMI.

 

[busarider29]

I don't think their demo is anything special. Matter of fact, it's quite bland in my opinion. But, that is just my opinion.

I agree, it is rather basic. However, it was more to show off that today's HMI's can look and feel just like a modern day webpage, with modern user-intuitive navigation controls, instead of the 'same ole' industrial HMI we've all seen the past 30 years. Moreover, you were able to easily connect, view, and interact with their machine/hmi via a web browser (Chrome or Edge), demonstrating that functionality as well.

By the way, I don't consider Ignition a HMI. It is full blown SCADA that can scale to HMI.

TC HMI is too. It can easily be built into a full SCADA system, not just stand-alone HMI. No difference there.

I don't think you will be won over by anything I say so I won't address your other questions.

Probably not. But that's only because no one here has really sold Ignition to me by showing me the value in it, compared to TC HMI. I mean, from a development standpoint, what, if anything, can one do with Ignition (base package), that I cannot do with TC HMI?? And if there are things that exist, are they worth, most likely, the extra cost for Ignition?? Granted I still need to get quotes back from Beckhoff to compare, and I will. When I do get those quotes, I will be sure to post them here in this thread, along with any other differences I might learn between now and then.

The two differences thus far that I'm willing to bet on that separates TC HMI from Ignition is...
1. TC HMI you can create your own user controls. Ignition you cannot.
2. TC HMI will come at significantly lesser cost

Of course, I could end up with egg on my face with those two bets, but that's okay, I'll handle it. And yes, I'm really interested in the comparisons now. I'll get in touch with Inductive and get answers.

 

[LadderLogic]

What are the communication drivers available with TC HMI? Other than Beckhoff’s of course.

 

[the_msp]

1. TC HMI you can create your own user controls. Ignition you cannot.

Nope. not true. If your Java skills are up to it, you can even create your own modules, which you can then sell as 3rd party modules, and adds an additional layer helping to protect IP. There is also the Ignition exchange, where other users post their contributions which can be downloaded for free.

 

[Phrog30]

Moreover, you were able to easily connect, view, and interact with their machine/hmi via a web browser (Chrome or Edge), demonstrating that functionality as well.

What do you think perspective is? The ignition demo is web. All major browsers except IE, which nobody should be using.

You may want to learn more about a product before you start saying what it can and can't do.

 

[busarider29]

What do you think perspective is? The ignition demo is web. All major browsers except IE, which nobody should be using.

You may want to learn more about a product before you start saying what it can and can't do.

Take it easy. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say or imply that Ignition was not used in a browser. Not once did I say or imply that. I know Ignition is used in a browser!

Nope. not true. If your Java skills are up to it, you can even create your own modules, which you can then sell as 3rd party modules, and adds an additional layer helping to protect IP. There is also the Ignition exchange, where other users post their contributions which can be downloaded for free.

Ok, that's the kind of information I want to know. Thank you!!
That is similar functionality to TC HMI, although TC HMI doesn't have a layer/option for selling your stuff as 3rd party and protection for IP. Everything is just shared via NuGet as far as I know.
ADVANTAGE : Ignition

What are the communication drivers available with TC HMI? Other than Beckhoff’s of course.

None that I know of other than ADS. The only other option currently outside of that is OPC/UA.
ADVANTAGE : Ignition

See, easy-peezy! That's all I wanted to know from the Ignition crowd - what advantages and value (TBD) does Ignition have that TC HMI doesn't, since I'm not familiar with Ignition? No need to get all butt hurt just because someone (me) challenges you and doesn't just blindly take your word for it ("Ignition is the best.....")

 

[the_msp]

Check out Nader's channel here:

https://youtu.be/6w8lW19s2y0

It gives a good example of what you can achieve with Perspective, which has only been out around 2 years. He has multiple videos.

I'll give a more comprehensive reply to some of your (@busarider29) other queries later.

 

[busarider29]

Check out Nader's channel here:

https://youtu.be/6w8lW19s2y0

It gives a good example of what you can achieve with Perspective, which has only been out around 2 years. He has multiple videos.

I'll give a more comprehensive reply to some of your (@busarider29) other queries later.

There appears to be a very broad range of what's possible with Perspective. The possibility of custom graphic and animations via key frames and CSS is a big plus, and what I personally appreciate. I've built custom HMI's as WPF windows applications, simply for that reason. As a developer, I like to have as much control and options as possible, whether it be for HMI or machine/business logic. For instance, if there's not a ready-made control in the toolbox for what I need/want, then there should be the option for me to create my own custom control. Furthermore, built-in functionality to create any kind of animation I can imagine. Of course your Factory Talk View, and many others don't give us those kinds of tools.

We've got some machine builds coming up next year, and I'll certainly take a deeper look at Perspective as a viable option for HMI/SCADA solution. Still a lot more comparisons to do, but nonetheless, it's got my attention. Thanks for sharing.