Plant VFD Standarization - AB, Schneider, Emerson, AC Tech

[justblaze]

I am looking for some opinions on which manufacturer to use to standardize the VFDs we use in our plant.

Previously we have used AC Tech / Lenze extensively. Mostly due to price I would say, there have not been many failures but these drives (MC Series and SM Vector) definitely lack features that I would like to have.

There is a local Allen-Bradley distributor that I have purchased some hardware from and Studio 5000 to support two ovens that we had retrofitted with new controls (Compact Logix, Panel View Plus, Powerflex 525s)

We have a handful of applications I would like to install VFDs on (40hp blower, 50hp blower, 30hp bandsaw, etc...)

The 40hp blower is 48 FLA at 480v.

Emerson M200 is $1600 with Ethernet/IP
Schneider Altivar Process 630 is $2500
Allen Bradley Powerflex 753 is $5000


I would prefer to use Allen Bradley hardware because we have a local stocking distributor but the price difference is extreme. Do these prices seem correct?

Both the Emerson CT and Schneider Altivar Process seem like very intuitive drives to setup, this would be a plus to help me teach the maintenance department.


Any input is appreciated.

 

[DickDV]

In my view, brand standardization is one of the most foolish things I have seen done in my 25+ years of selling and commissioning industrial automation. The notion, I suppose, is that favorable pricing and less training will result.

In fact, the exact opposite is true for pricing and support. Any supplier that has the good fortune of an exclusive brand relationship with a user account immediately resorts to gradually increasing the price of material above the normal market price. Why not! They're locked into us anyway.

As to training, many suppliers deliberately alter software menus and conventions with every model change so the user has to buy new software and retrain their techs. I've found AB to be particularly consistent in doing this and I attribute it to the software divisions being separate profit centers. At least there are some suppliers that standardize on a particular software convention and menu and then hold it thru numerous models an years of product. This is hugely beneficial because what you learn on the smallest and cheapest models also applies when a full-featured application comes along.

I can see some benefit for users to have a list of "don't use" brands. This can be due to lack of support in a particular area, bad pricing experience, technical deficiencies in the products, or corrupt selling practices.

I can also see some benefit in having a short (4-6 brands) approved vendors list. This keeps the pricing competitive and forces some discipline on the suppliers. But, this needs to be updated every three to five years or it becomes meaningless.

But a single approved automation vendor--plain foolishness. You're just asking to be abused.

 

[ASF]

+1, DickDV.

If it were me, I'd set yourself at minimum two, and up to four approved models. Make sure they come from completely different suppliers, and make sure those suppliers are aware of it.

It also gives you that bit more flexibility in that you can use a robust but cheap drive for a VSD that does nothing except start/stop/ramp a motor to fixed speed, while still having an approved option when you have an application that requires fine-grained control/encoders/safe stop/comms/etc.

 

[Paullys50]

Depends on how much you want to integrate them into your control systems. If you are moving to AB for PLCs and you want to take advantage of controlling VFDs over Ethernet then you need to dedicate yourself to that cause and become loyal to a brand on some level. Should improve your pricing if it means more business to the distributor.

However, if you're just talking control via terminal wiring then find a good brand with local support and availability. I'd concur with others on keeping 2-3 in your pocket. Keeps pricing in check and ensures availability.

Danfoss, Mitsubishi, GE, Siemens... plenty of options.

 

[(8{)} ( .)]

I agree with the idea of standardization of VSDs because, unlike PLCs, it's far easier to swap out competing models. You could always put competitive manufacturer's adverts on your desk when your VSD supplier visits. As for recommendations, we've used mostly ABB and ControlTechniques in recent years. There are plenty of other decent and competitively priced units out there. I personally look for built-in Modbus in any VSD we use but the choice to entirely or partially control or monitor the drive over any network is your decision.

Good Luck,

Yosi

 

[redbarron55]

To me the question is the ease of the technicians who support the equipment.
After a Tech gets familiar with the hardware life is easier.
There can be reasons to choose one over the other and it often comes down to packaging of the drive.
We have some Danfoss drives here because they have a washdown unit that can be mounted outside.
Altivar did not have one without mounting it in a NEMA 4X cabinet running the installed cost up considerably.
In other places we have more of less standardized on the Altivar, but have some Lenze delivered on packaged equipment.
I don't think you can standardize completely on one unit and just as soon as you get 100% they will quit making that model and you get to start over anyway.

 

[jraef]

If you are integrating your drives into a ControlLogix platform via Ethernet, there are very real advantages to using the PowerFlex 750 or 520 series drives, the best being the ability to have ADC. When it comes to VFDs, having your control system automatically reprogram a replacement drive at 3:00AM means your swing shift electricians don't need to call you to figure out how to load the programming or find the laptop with the software etc. They don't even need to find the manual. Just three wires in, three wires out and plug in the RJ45. That difference in down time can more than make up for the cost. Also the fact that Studio5000 now includes everything you need to program the drives means one programming platform and automatic upload of tag info etc. when starting a project. For me, it's been a real time saver.

That said, I don't think your supplier is liking you much. I can buy a 753 that size for a lot less... Not as cheap as those others, but they are charging you almost list price. Are you sure they are an authorized AB distributor? A lot of places claim they are but are bootlegging the products in from somewhere else. There is never more than one AB distributor in any geographical area. If they are the official one, you need to let them know their pricing is out of line.

I think the Control Techniques drives are fine, but their distribution is spotty in this country and there is no place in my area that sells them. I personally have an extreme dislike for all Altivar drives, they have cost me more money in wasted programming time than any other brand on the market. I do like ABB drives, but since the switch to having the old Baldor reps supporting them, their reputation, at least locally, has been suffering. I know enough about them to not need support, but other people I talk to around here have been shying away from them now. Siemens makes good drives, but much much more complicated than they need to be, and again, local support around here is practically non-existent. Bottom line, brand loyalty is something I think should be earned on a local level. When you need help, an 800 number is 2nd best to a human person with experience.

 

[jstolaruk]

I am looking for some opinions on which manufacturer to use to standardize the VFDs we use in our plant.

Previously we have used AC Tech / Lenze extensively. Mostly due to price I would say, there have not been many failures but these drives (MC Series and SM Vector) definitely lack features that I would like to have.

There is a local Allen-Bradley distributor that I have purchased some hardware from and Studio 5000 to support two ovens that we had retrofitted with new controls (Compact Logix, Panel View Plus, Powerflex 525s)

We have a handful of applications I would like to install VFDs on (40hp blower, 50hp blower, 30hp bandsaw, etc...)

The 40hp blower is 48 FLA at 480v.

Emerson M200 is $1600 with Ethernet/IP
Schneider Altivar Process 630 is $2500
Allen Bradley Powerflex 753 is $5000


I would prefer to use Allen Bradley hardware because we have a local stocking distributor but the price difference is extreme. Do these prices seem correct?

Both the Emerson CT and Schneider Altivar Process seem like very intuitive drives to setup, this would be a plus to help me teach the maintenance department.


Any input is appreciated.

Your AB distributor can give price breaks if you show them the competition pricing. Its done all the time.

 

[ganutenator]

yaskowa is the bomb.
We use Schneider altivars due to cost et al, but the manuals and documentation is pretty horrific.
Not to mention the programming software gotchas.

 

[DwSoFt]

Your AB distributor can give price breaks if you show them the competition pricing. Its done all the time.

That may be so, but really they should.give a better price right off the bat IMO. I've had this happen numerous times. Get quotes for Brand X,Y,Z . Order Y, then later.X is asking you.why you. Never used theirs you tell them.price and they say well I could have gone lower....
That's the point of getting quotes. To get the best price. So if you dontwant to lose quotes then give a better price off the hop...
END RANT LOL
I have used a lot of ABB AB and Eaton drives with good success. The Eaton took a bit of getting used to but price wise they are good. Stick.to a couple brands.you know and like and you.are.laughing

 

[AustralIan]

That may be so, but really they should.give a better price right off the bat IMO. I've had this happen numerous times.

I am considering getting some sales training under my belt so I can better understand how suppliers work. Why does it take 2 weeks to get me a price for something in your catalog? Why do you need to come and see me to get a price for something in your catalog? All these and more probably have reasons that can be explained with some sales training.

 

[Diameter157]

I am considering getting some sales training under my belt so I can better understand how suppliers work. Why does it take 2 weeks to get me a price for something in your catalog? Why do you need to come and see me to get a price for something in your catalog? All these and more probably have reasons that can be explained with some sales training.

Would also love an answer to these questions. It's annoying when the boss asks you to design and price up a system and it takes you an extra 2 weeks because you have to wait for quotes.

 

[BlueAltezza]

If you use the AB Powerflex and integrate to the PLC architecture then you're definitely cornering yourself to use AB exclusively and pay the premium.
If you utilize all basic I/O then you keep your options open as many people have stated.
With my experience the Schneider drives are the most cost effective and have had minimal problems with them. They have some programming tools that can be handy for OEMs where you're dumping in the same settings to 100's of drives a year.

Yaskawa is definitely at the top in terms of reliability and pricing is very fair. Probably the safest bet all around.

I've recently started using some Emerson drives and don't have any complaints, but not a big sample size to comment on reliability yet. Pricing is on par with the Schneider.

 

[justblaze]

Thank you all for your replies, I appreciate any advice that I can get.

I understand the reasoning against a single brand standardization.
Larger drives are not much of an issue because it's impractical to stock
40hp, 50hp, 75hp, 150hp, 200hp drives.

The smaller ones that we install in panels are an area where I think it's beneficial.
It's convenient to have one of each 1hp, 2hp, and 3hp drives in stock that cover the majority of our equipment. Previously this has been the AC Tech SM Vector series. They have been reliable but basic. Once we switch to a better VFD, I couldn't see switching to another manufacturer because we found a better price and then having to re-drill and tap the back panel in an enclosure and change I/O wiring when a VFD fails late at night.

Currently we only have two ovens that use the Compact Logix and PowerFlex 525 drives with Ethernet/IP control. I like the integration that this provides and every part of this system is locally stocked (30 minute drive). HMI, PLC, VFDs, Remote I/O

Many of our in house projects have Automation Direct controllers. I have used the Clicks for smaller projects and the Productivity 3000 for larger projects with remote I/O.
I want to improve future and previous projects significantly. Better control, reliability, and safety.

I can say that we have a bunch of Yaskawa drives in one machine and we have not had to replace any of them since I have been with the company.

None of the people in the maintenance department would be able to use Connected Components to setup a PF525. They lack computer and electrical skills. It is an outside electrical contractor and I that are knowledgeable. This outside contractor is not knowledgeable with computers or PLC systems either. He could install a 3000 amp service but anything beyond relay logic is out of his scope.