PLC software costs

Hi Pierre, nice to see you again. I thought you might be retired and fishing everyday in one of the great lakes by now :)

Boswellw; Pierre is right - Siemens pitch at the big leagues. I used to have the same thoughts as you. If you read past posts on this same topic you will see that I have said much the same as you.

I can't justify the cost of this kind of software as I can't pass it on. I don't do enough big projects to pay for it. Not when I have invested so much money and time on other software that can do just the same job.

So Siemens will never sell me any software or hardware and I will never spec or program their products.

Neither of us will lose any sleep over it
 
I work for myself - there is no one else - I am the designer, builder, software writer, commissioning engineer, documentation writer, support person, accounts payable, accounts receivable, purchasing etc.
My main problem with software is having to buy everything in bits and pieces and then paying for support, upgrades, having to use many different sets of software for the same brand, even the look and feel of software for different platforms from the same company is totally different.
Added to that a new operating system comes out and the old one is no longer available and the very expensive PLC software I have to maintain is not compatable with the new OS for 4 years - ridiculous.
One contributor to this thread mentions lower prices for larger users and mentions some dollars spent by his company in one year. As stated, I work for myself and regularly spend more than $300k per year on PLC hardware. It is pretty easy to spend $500k in a year quite frankly.
I prefer software that is integrated, is kept up to date quickly with the latest OS, does not grab serial ports to the detriment of other software, behaves itself and completely closes down when told to close down. I very much dislike software that puts files all over the hard drive also.
The integration also needs to have fully functional PLC/screen simulators that work together quickly and easily so that I can see how things work on the desktop instead of finishing up onsite with everyone up your tail to get it working and finding I have to redo screens etc because they do not work as intended due to the lack of a fully functional PLC/screen simulator. That is probably my biggess gripe as it costs me time that I do not have to spare.
The cost of some software is certainly ridiculous. The cost of support and updates for some software is certainly ridiculous also. Even worse, a lot of the very expensive software is not integrated and I do not know of many brands that come with a fully working PLC/screen simulator program.
Some PLC companies also change the rules in midstream so that one goes from a single licence purchase and support at reasonable cost to having to buy a 10 pack or pay a lot of money each year for support and updates for software that is not often used.
Give me one set of software that is fully integrated and covers all products produced by the company, at a reasonable cost, free updates on the web until a revised major upgrade comes along once a year and even that is at a reasonable cost and I will go with them every time, provided the hardware cuts to the chase of course.
From some too many different platforms with too many different function sets, things you wish to use that are available in one PLC and not another, no integration, will not work on the latest OS. How many PLC manufacturers software is now fully compliant with Windows 7? There are quite a few that I know of that are not. For those that will run on Windows 7 how many are now 64 bit compliant? I may be wrong but only know of one at this stage.
WHY?
Pay big money and wait 4 years before it will run on the latest OS? Cannot run on 64 bit at all? Once again, why should anyone pay big money for software and support when a simple thing like an OS change takes 4 years to fix - and still pay big money - and still do not have a fully integrated package available to cover all hardware?
I have deliberately avoided mentioning any brands and I am not 'brand bashing' here but fail to understand why our PLC manufacturers want to charge big dollars for, in my opinion, quite often antiquated software that lacks full functionality and will not run on the latest OS.
I do not know if it true but heard a rumour the other day that Microsoft are about to abandon 32 bit software shortly. Man, as it took 4 years to become Vista compliant for many I hate to think how long we are going to have to wait for many to become 64 bit compliant!!!
Whoops, failed to mention I do SCADA myself as well.
Another gripe, eveytime I require pricing on PLC and/or automation gear I have to get a quote or ring up for pricing. One manufacturer came in the other day with a TRADE PRICE LIST for all automation/PLC components, including software. I can now price and quote a job at noght after working onsite all day without having to ring up in the morning for pricing, wasting my precious time and causing me to lose production time. Then finding I have missed something and having to wait another day. Huge bonus for me.
 
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Hi Pierre, nice to see you again. I thought you might be retired and fishing everyday in one of the great lakes by now :)

Boswellw; Pierre is right - Siemens pitch at the big leagues. I used to have the same thoughts as you. If you read past posts on this same topic you will see that I have said much the same as you.

I can't justify the cost of this kind of software as I can't pass it on. I don't do enough big projects to pay for it. Not when I have invested so much money and time on other software that can do just the same job.

So Siemens will never sell me any software or hardware and I will never spec or program their products.

Neither of us will lose any sleep over it

So what do you use ? :confused:

Its not as if Siemens are different to say AB, which to me is worse for all the licenses you need.

I presume some of the lower end ones are cheaper but perhaps the range on offer is less, of course of you don't need the range then fair enough.
 
What do you call lower end?
I do not use lower end and do not have to put up with miles of licences, lots of cost, disfunctional hardware and software.
Hardware and software prices are most reasonable and function set is the same in a shoe box as in a hot standby system - actually better.
 
This is one of the reasons i love redlion hmis....

Free Software, free Firmware, No License problems...

And if thats not good enough there support is better than all the opposition

I rarely fit new AB any more, never use Mitsi due to my hate / hate relationship with gx :ROFLMAO:

All we use at present is siemens and it would be nice if they gave it away free, say put a few % on every plc and IO module to cover software development....
 
Hey Goody,

I have lost the intellectual stimulation that I believing I was getting from chats on this site some years back. The Zen of PLCs. Your real life stories and programming help where great.

Nowadays when I have an hour to spare, after playing soccer with one of my 3 boys, I sit and watch MU or Chelsea. Drogba and Anelka are real impressive an what will Sir Alex do to get his club back on to the top is fun to watch.

On the high price of programming softwares, the one good argument I think still stands is the one about the justice of having EVERYBODY pay a small share, although frequent users would be overpaying, compare to the actual situation with the majors when you pay one price (high) and absorb it on the quatity of hardware you purchase. If you sell less hardware your pro-rata price is VERY high, If you sell a lot of that stuff, your price is deemed very low per pieces of equipments.

But please, my US friend, don't feed me that bull about quality and development costs to get that high level of quality. You don't know better.

All of this is a business decision. We get to vote with our $$$.

I am from the days when the TI... (That's Texas Instruments :)) rep would come to our school and show us his fantastic PLC and then would go for a coffe break AND LEAVE THE SOFTWARE DISKETTES ON THE DESK... We all where soon pretty good at programming off-line his brand.

I have programmed all brand that exist.. almost anyway. The one single factor I have found is how farr in there business case that companie is up.

Remember the sport teams. They have made a nice pile of cash in the past but now, almost all of them are saying they are loosing money. How is this so?

Well, they used to have an organisation, a league. They had players and people would pay to see them. They would sell beer and jerseys and caps and publicity. In the end, they turn a profit and that was it.

Now, the stadium is owned by another comapnie (most often the profits go to the same owners) which rents it to the team. The jerseys are sold by yet another comapnie (most often the profits go to the same owners)and the publicity is also sold by yet another firm...

And so on... hence the real sport team is not making a profit... and the ******** goes on and on.

Software comapnies are just the same. There software his an independant sector that MUST turn out a profit in the end. It started by being part of the same old package, to become a center of cost, to now be a new profit center.

One way to find if they are for me... if they give me a reference number... GOOD BYE!!!

If they would at least feed me something which is not full of bugs... I am not a beta tester ... I would understand... but like it is said... they don't do bugs like bunny anymore.

About the arguments on Big users and SMALL users. Say you are a small country in south america. Say most of your people are computer illetrates. You don't have the purchasing power to use MS products.

How would using a cracked version be considered?

Remember Spock "The good of the one vs the good of the many..."

My clients get to decide in which league they want be. They want to be in the AB league, they purchase the software. In the end its better for them to have there own licence on site... I setup a desktop and install there own licence on it and they are safer from me or anybody elses ideas of who owns the code this way.

The same storie repeats itslef on and on. This is exactly like the advent of DDE ... (DCS somebody? Wonderware...)

The only power I have is to NOT PURCHASE Siemens of RS when I have a choice... and I can tell you that I very often have this choice.

On the other hand, I also recommand Rockwell or Siemens to some users. Because its what is best for them sometimes. It as to do with trainning and local support and local availability of trainned people... not so ever with hardware or software quality.

I have stories so funny with Rockwell and eBay.. maybee some other times.

My 2 cents.
 

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