Powerflex 400 Current limiting

Adam303

Lifetime Supporting Member
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
Chicago
Posts
587
Hello friends.
I have a power flex 400 VFD 22C-D088A103, its running a effluent pump at our WWTP. The vfd was installed about three day ago and functioning fine until today. When a start command is issued drives ramps up to about 3-4 Hz with current draw of 58 amps, this is when the current limiting occurs and drive will probably fault out on overcurrent. Anyone have any ideas? The pump is also equipped with bypass control, when active pump start fine and draws about 34 amps.
 
When a start command is issued drives ramps up to about 3-4 Hz with current draw of 58 amps, this is when the current limiting occurs and drive will probably fault out on overcurrent.
Does the drive actually fault and if so what is the fault?

When you issue a start command does the motor actually turn or is it just the drive indicating 3-4 Hz and what is the speed reference?

Who set the drive up, if it was an outside contractor then get them back.

What are the motor nameplate parameters (Volts, Hz, Amps) and check they are correctly programmed in the drive.

You have an 88 amp drive but I suspect your motor is much smaller because you are sitting at 58 amps, drive will normally supply 150% amps for 60 seconds before faulting on motor overload, does this mean you have a 38 amp motor?

I haven't worked with many PF400's but often the fan/pump curves don't work very well and need customising. You probably need a bit of voltage boost to get the motor started, can you post the values of parameters 170 to 174.

If par 170 is at the default 4 then try putting it to 7 or 8 but don't leave drive running for too long at low speed with a high boost voltage. If motor starts OK then read the manual for the above parameters.

I usually like to use the Custom V/Hz but wouldn't like to recommend settings without being on site. It all depends on how much torque is needed to start the motor, can you turn the motor or pump shaft by hand?
 
Hello andypot
Does the drive actually fault and if so what is the fault?
No drive does not fault out.
When you issue a start command does the motor actually turn or is it just the drive indicating 3-4 Hz and what is the speed reference?
motor does not turn at all, drive is indicating 3-4 Hz current draw 58 amps, as in par# A179 Current limit 1

Who set the drive up, if it was an outside contractor then get them back.
It was installed in house and programed in house.

What are the motor nameplate parameters (Volts, Hz, Amps) and check they are correctly programmed in the drive.
Volts:480
HZ:60
F.L.A 52.2
S.F.A 64.1
Hp:40
You have an 88 amp drive but I suspect your motor is much smaller because you are sitting at 58 amps, drive will normally supply 150% amps for 60 seconds before faulting on motor overload, does this mean you have a 38 amp motor?
Yes the drive is oversized Motor HP 40

If par 170 is at the default 4 then try putting it to 7 or 8 but don't leave drive running for too long at low speed with a high boost voltage. If motor starts OK then read the manual for the above parameters.
Yes it is set to default 4

I usually like to use the Custom V/Hz but wouldn't like to recommend settings without being on site. It all depends on how much torque is needed to start the motor, can you turn the motor or pump shaft by hand?
Motor can be turned by hand
 
We had a vfd acting exactly the same recently. The millwrights found a bearing that had not been greased, and after they fixed it, that solved the problem.

Our other electrician swapped the vfd, thinking it was faulty, but the new vfd did the exact same thing afterwards. Ours was a small powerflex 700.
 
I'm fairly sure you need a bit of volts boost to get your motor started, did you try changing par 170 from 4 to 7 or 8?

Other points to note.

1. Motor is 480 volts, drive is 460 volts so you will be slightly low on V/Hz. Even more reason to give it a volts boost to start.

2. Where did the setting in A179 come from? You have 58 amps, I don't think that is correct. I believe A179 is to protect the drive not the motor, I would leave it at the default 96.8amps. Parameter 33 provides motor protection and should be set to the maximum allowable motor current which in your case I believe is either 52.2 or 64.1 amps (I would go for the lower value). The drive will fault on an F7 Motor Overload if the value of this parameter is exceeded by 150% for 60 seconds. Don't worry that this value seems high - remember if you start this motor across the line it will draw around 6 x FLA on starting in other words something like 300 amps!
 
I'm fairly sure you need a bit of volts boost to get your motor started, did you try changing par 170 from 4 to 7 or 8?

Other points to note.

1. Motor is 480 volts, drive is 460 volts so you will be slightly low on V/Hz. Even more reason to give it a volts boost to start.

2. Where did the setting in A179 come from? You have 58 amps, I don't think that is correct. I believe A179 is to protect the drive not the motor, I would leave it at the default 96.8amps. Parameter 33 provides motor protection and should be set to the maximum allowable motor current which in your case I believe is either 52.2 or 64.1 amps (I would go for the lower value). The drive will fault on an F7 Motor Overload if the value of this parameter is exceeded by 150% for 60 seconds. Don't worry that this value seems high - remember if you start this motor across the line it will draw around 6 x FLA on starting in other words something like 300 amps!
Point 1 is interesting and I agree. NEMA motor utilization voltage specs call for motor voltages to be 460V for use in a 480V service, a nod to the expectation of voltage drop. Because of that, the factory default voltage setting in the drive will be 460V. If the motor nameplate does indeed state 480V, that will result in a slight field weakend condition throughout the V/Hz range. Rather that address it only at the low end boost, I think this should be fixed in the motor parameter settings. There may be more going on in this situation than just this, but it should be eliminated first because it has other long term ramifications.

Point two addresses something else I find to be very often true; the phenomenon I call "Find The Buried Fault". Because a VFD is allowing the motor to accelerate very slowly, they (and Soft Starters) often allow previously unknown problems in a motor or the mechanical power train to become more immediately evident. When started Across-The-Line, some issues that will eventually lead to complete failure happen so fast that they go unobserved, usually until it is too late. The bad bearing story offered earlier is a prime example of that. When started ATL, the excess starting torque surge blasted the motor right through the bad bearing, maybe aided by the presence of axial or lateral thrust. But the soft starting affect of the VFD meant that bad bearing issue loomed larger for longer in the torque speed profile of the connected load, so the effect it had on the drive could be seen. The VFD didn't likely cause the situation, it just allowed it to become visible.

I would fix the voltage parameter issue first, then I would start troubleshooting by connecting any other motor to that drive, preferably smaller, and seeing if the situation persists. The only thing inside of the VFD that could cause it to go into current limit prematurely (or at least appear to) would be a failed or rather failing transistor. The current display is a calculated AVERAGE value based off of the DC bus current, but the protection circuits are in each output. If one transistor is failing, the current in the effected phases might increase, which may trigger the Current Limit effect if enabled. But if there is very little load, the effect that has on the AVERAGE current makes it appear lower. Of couse this kind of situation is temporary because eventually the failure will cascade to destruction, but this may be the bellweather. If this is the case, the problem you see now will persist regardless of what motor is connected to the drive, hence the small motor test.

Good luck.
 
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Point 1 is interesting and I agree. NEMA motor utilization voltage specs call for motor voltages to be 460V for use in a 480V service, a nod to the expectation of voltage drop. Because of that, the factory default voltage setting in the drive will be 460V. If the motor nameplate does indeed state 480V, that will result in a slight field weakend condition throughout the V/Hz range. Rather that address it only at the low end boost, I think this should be fixed in the motor parameter settings.

I may have got it wrong when I said it's a 460 volt drive, the part number lists it as 480 volt but looking at an offline configuration in Drive Executive it wouldn't let me set the motor nameplate voltage higher than 460 volt. When Adan303 tries it on site he may find that he can set the motor voltage to 480 volts.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions, I will be at the site tomorrow and will let you know anymore finding.
I'm fairly sure you need a bit of volts boost to get your motor started, did you try changing par 170 from 4 to 7 or 8?
No I have not tried yet, will test it tomorrow.
I usually like to use the Custom V/Hz but wouldn't like to recommend settings without being on site.
Where is the custom V/Hz feature in PF 400.

Will try to connect a smaller motor and see if the drive will act any different.
 
Regarding my third point about possible failures inside the VFD that might cause these symptoms. I spoke with my best drives service tech about this, he confirmed what I suggested, but also added that if one of the current sensors on the output transistor sets has gone bad, that too may be causing this, because it may be saturating and over driving that one phase signal. The drive sees that as just high current, but not quite a Short Circuit, so it is trying to correct it via current limit by driving down the frequency, overriding the speed command. But again, it looks like a lower value on the display that what that bad phase is (or the bad sensor thinks it is) because that 400 only shows average output current, not individual phase currents.

But he added also that regarding my test suggestion with a small motor, on a PF400 you should in fact NOT test it with a motor smaller than 25% of the VFD output rating, otherwise the remaining good sensors may not protect the drive from a catastrophic failure if there IS a problem on the load side, since the current sensors will not pick up the rate of rise quick enough. Sorry about that, something I just learned today.
 
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@ jraef,
Thanks for the suggestion, I just got back from the site, we tested the drive with a second pump, all turns out good, drive ramps up to commanded frequencies at preset acceleration times.
On the pump that does not run we actually found a bearing that is bad, when ran in bypass (across the line) we hear loud noise and the impeller comes with contact with housing.
Again Thanks
 
@ jraef,
Thanks for the suggestion, I just got back from the site, we tested the drive with a second pump, all turns out good, drive ramps up to commanded frequencies at preset acceleration times.
On the pump that does not run we actually found a bearing that is bad, when ran in bypass (across the line) we hear loud noise and the impeller comes with contact with housing.
Again Thanks
Thanks, always good to hear outcomes.

And like I said, "Find the Buried Fault".
 

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