Red Lion G304K vs. Allen-Bradley PanelView 300 Micro

[OkiePC]

We never figured out what was killing the PV300 Micro. The environment is hot and steamy and there are acidic gases in the room at times. The year we gave up on them we lost 5 PV300's in four months, and our usage history showed that we had used 6 of them in the previous year on that same application. They had already tried putting a membrane over the face of the PV300 but all that really seemed to do was make it hard to operate. I tossed that membrane after a month with the G304K installed to see if it would die.

At one point we replaced the 24vdc power supply, and I even put my meter on peak hold and left it in the panel for hours and saw the voltage was solid. I even power cycled the 3 phase supply to see if I was getting a spike, but all appeared normal. This was when I put in our last PV300, and had the G304K requisitioned. I was still programming the G304K when that last PV300 micro croaked about 3 weeks later, so I hastily wrapped up my editing and stuck it in there, the only other change was to install my home made cable and cut the opening slightly wider in the fiberglass panel.

My parts room guy ordered two spares of the G304K expecting them to fail after a few months, and those two spares are still sitting on the shelf, programmed and ready to go if the first ever does give up the ghost.

EDIT: I just reread the 1st post about a wrap machine. That application never happened, since that machine rusted in half and now sits in the bone yard, so my last couple of posts are in reference to a different application on a pump panel for a waste water treatment system.

 

[JeffKiper]

Crimson 3 is just streets ahead of every other HMI editor and platform.

I think this speaks volumes to Red Lion.

 

[Eric Nelson]

I think this speaks volumes to Red Lion.

It's well deserved. I have battled with many a different HMI software package over the years. There is always some limitation preventing me from doing what I want. I either have to find a crude workaround, or live with the limitation.

I have yet to hit a wall with Crimson 3. I have only used about a half-dozen G3's to date, but on every one, I have ALWAYS been able to make it do EXACTLY what I want...



-Eric

 

[Tim James]

We've been using the PV300 for years on our company products (many hundreds). They are always located outside, door mounted on a control panel, but within their own NEMA 12 sealed box on the door. I have seen very few failures, but they are fairly well protected. However, it seems that AB is going to begin phasing them out over this next year so I'm trying to get a jump on selected a replacement. The G304K might be the way to go. I just don't like the idea of having to go DB9 to RJ12 back to DB9 then to an 8 pin mini DIN. Maybe I need to start looking for a cable manufacture to make some custom DB9 to 8 pin mini DIN with the appropriate pinouts.

I don't suppose the G304K is rated for use in hazardous locations? It doesn't appear to be based on the data sheet, just UL 508 listed. If I remember correctly the PV300 is rated for Class I Div 2 locations.

 

[Clay B.]

I don't suppose the G304K is rated for use in hazardous locations? It doesn't appear to be based on the data sheet, just UL 508 listed. If I remember correctly the PV300 is rated for Class I Div 2 locations.

Red Lion G3o6 and above have a Class 1 Div 2 Rating. I do not believe the Kadets carry the same rating. They are just UL Listed, though they do carry a IP65 rating which would allow you to use them in a Class 2 Div2 area.

 

[califflash]

I now have 5 G3 HMIs running and have not seen a failure, although this latest one (a G310) is being subjected to severe wash down nightly and severe vibration all day long, so if it survives there for a year that will be about 3 times longer than the pv600+ it replaced.

I have had 2 g306's in heavy washdown as well. The screen hold up great. We are covering the enclosures, which include a plc and contactors as well, with a bag during every 5 hour sanitation shift to help keep the chemicals from eroding the seals.

I've worked in this plant going on 3 years now and these cabinets are the only ones that don't get water in them. I attribute this to the red lion screen. I have found the seals inside an AB pushbutton to give out after about 1-3 months, 800h or 800t. In my case it just happened to be cheaper to put a screen instead of buying an assortment of buttons, but even if it wasn't I would choose it for the reliability aspect.

 

[rta53]

We install water purification systems in trailers and have generally used AB products. We use a ML1400 in our panels and have used the PanelView Component which I don't really care for. Don't like the whole web browser programming idea and our operators don't really like them either. I have been looking for a replacement for the PV Component and I like the looks and price of the Red Lion G304K Kadet. We are using DF1 for the comm. Any issues between the ML1400 and the Kadet? And do you use Crimson 2 or 3 to program these? Seems like I read that some folks use C3 but the Red Lion web site says they are programmed with C2. Does it matter? What are the differences?

Thanks

 

[OkiePC]

I use Crimson 3.0

Red Lion has not updated some of their web pages and some of their pdf files still show C2.

I have connected them to Micrologix1000 and SLC 5/04, 5/05s via RS232 (DF1 and DH485) and with Ethernet as well as through Digi One IAP modules.

Because the 1400 is relatively new, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of quirks, but I would expect the normal DF1 protocol to work just fine, and if there were any issues, Red Lion tech support will be quick to sort them out with you.

 

[rta53]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you have gotten good service out of the Kadets. Have you used other G3s or just the Kadets? Do you still use any AB HMIs?

 

[OkiePC]

That first Kadet I installed has been running two years without any issues. The PV300 Micro it replaced was failing apx. every 90 days.

My 2nd one was a G306A installed about 20 months ago on an in motion check weighing application. It has also performed flawlessly. It talks to a Compactlogix controller and a SLC 5/04 via Digi module over ethernet. It allowed me to create a faster and more versatile control system to replace the OEM system on the machine as well as log data for every case of sausage we produce (about 10-12 thousand cases per day).

The third one is for air handlers for our largest meat processing room. It is a G310 and has been running for about a year with no issues. It replaced about $900 worth of keyswitches and pilot lights that were always corroding and failing. It gave us the ability to use a web browser on our intranet to monitor and control room temperature (don't have to go through HAACP procedures to enter a room just to put a key in a switch every night), and the added bonus of logging users who switch modes or adjust temp settings, and logs temperature and discrete data very nicely right on its CF card for easy access via browser.

The fourth one went into service about 2 weeks ago on a patty forming machine. It replaced a Panelview600 plus. This machine gets power cycled 3 to ten times per day for set up and adjustments, so the fact that the G3 is booted up and running 7 seconds after the disconnect closes gives us an extra 3 to 10 minutes of production from this machine every day. This machine is also the worst environment of them all for vibration and washdown, so I expect it to be the first to fail, although I seriously doubt it will fail more frequently than the panelview it replaced.

We have a few dozen Panelview standards and Panelview Pluses in service throughout the plant. We have one EZTouch too. The EZTouch has failed once in my six years here, but it is in a pretty rough environment, so I give it a thumbs up. It is quick too, and easy to program.

The panelview plus 600 are disposable junk in my opinion. The larger Panelview Pluses are much better than the 600+ for reliability, but they are still terribly slow, and agonizing to program, not to mention difficult for the average mechanic to configure replacements.

I don't plan to develop any new apps for anything but the G3. I plan to replace existing A/B touchscreens with G3s as they fail. We have several Panelview Standards that may last for many many more years so we will probably always have a few of them around. We recently had a network problem and thought we had lost a PV1000 (standard), found that there is no spare, and the replacement is almost $7000, so I have already developed the replacement G310 program for that spot. We got the existing one to work, and it may be a decade before it dies, and when it does, I will pop a G310 in the cabinet for $2400.

After our A/B distributor found out we were trying out the G304K to replace the PV300 Micro, he tried to sell us on the PVC, but it was too late. I had already downloaded my first creation to the Kadet on my desk and had seen how fast and responsive it was. It could flip though all eleven pages faster than I could tap the Goto buttons, and took only a second or two to update serially as I expanded the application. I had also read about how terrible the PVc is on these forums. We said, thanks, but no thanks.

 

[rta53]

Thanks Okie. Great info. I really appreciate the feedback.