Replace Servo with AC motor

Do you know what motor and controller you have on your system?

Its just a Baldor motor and drive, nothing special a 15J I think, with a brake since its verticle see here. They wrote an app. in the PLC to control it, using an encoder and an analog output to the drive speed input. They even made a home routine in the ladder. I always laugh when I see it. It would be so much easier to implement with an indexing servo drive now. But it works, +/- 1/8" is within its abilities.

This system you have almost sounds like it just needs a gearmotor and a few limit or prox. switches to stop it. I'm not sure but that is the impression I get.
 
Hey, Big John, what is your duty cycle like, and what PLC hardware are you working with?

I have done a poor man's servo very much like you describe, and I was able to maintain position accuracy within 0.1" using a 1 HP squirrel cage motor driven by an AB160 analog drive which was controlled by a PLC5 bipolar analog voltage reference, PLC triggered enable relay, and feedback was from an AMCI resolver for a total of 1024 counts for the screw which was provided about 18 inches of usable travel.

I had about 1 count per .02 inches, and could easily and quickly get within 5 counts of the target by simply ramping down the speed reference as the distance to go approached zero.

I calculated distance_to_go and divided that by a tunable value I called decel_distance. That would give a floting point value from 0.0 to much greater than 1.0, but I clamped it at 1, and multiplied it times my software MAX_SPEED setting.


So basically I was using proportional control. My max speed limit and target position was controlled by the main machine sequencer. The analog reference to the drive was calculated using those figures and the tunable decel_distance setting and min_speed setting. I had to add the min_speed setting to prevent the screw from stalling out at low speeds when the max speed called for was low, and the load on the stitchers was much greater. I eventually made the decel distance a calculated value based on max speed and did away with the min speed offset.

I had to allow a tolerance of 10 counts of resolution to guarantee that it would not overshoot, but would move fast enough not to impact the cycle rate of the whole machine.

The math was simple, calculate the distance to go, divide that by decel distance, multiply that times max_speed, add the min speed offset, clamp the result to within +/-max_speed.

As your device approaches the target position, the speed reference will decrease toward zero. If overshoots, the speed reference will become negative, driving the screw directly toward the target. I set the accel time in my drive to 0.5 seconds and the decel time to 0.2 seconds. I tried 0.1 but the performance actually decreased when I tried that. It seemed to work better with 0.2 seconds in those crude little V/Hz drives.

Then I just forced on the enable relay and punched in some target positions and tweaked my decel distance value and my min and max speeds to get it tuned where I wanted.

Also, there were software overtravel limits which would shut it off before I could run out of leadscrew. Those were very handy when I was figuring out the direction and polarity during the upgrades.

All in all, it worked great. the same settings worked on all 36 of the machines I had set up this way.

Later, I even adapted the code to handle the multiple turn transfer rollers on the same tire building machine using the same drive/motor/feedback device.

It was very reliable and easy to understand, but it replaced a bunch of obsolete standalone PLS type hardware based on a grey-code encoder and a bunch of thumbwheel settings on a Sequential (brand) relay board.

Hardly the same as replacing a servo positioner, but very cost effective.

I only had to move these tire sticher screws 5 times per minute at about 1-3 inches per second (1500 motor RPM) and stop them within 1/8" to meet spec.

That's why I ask about duty cycle. If you are moving a high intertia load back and forth every 5 seconds, you may run into problems. A light load, relative to the motor torque, or only few times a minute, though is likely easy for a modern drive.
 
Gerry M said:
Its just a Baldor motor and drive, nothing special a 15J I think, with a brake since its verticle see here. They wrote an app. in the PLC to control it, using an encoder and an analog output to the drive speed input. They even made a home routine in the ladder. I always laugh when I see it. It would be so much easier to implement with an indexing servo drive now. But it works, +/- 1/8" is within its abilities.

This system you have almost sounds like it just needs a gearmotor and a few limit or prox. switches to stop it. I'm not sure but that is the impression I get.

It would not work with limit switches as I need to be able to set the travel via the OI...

John
 
OkiePC said:
Hey, Big John, what is your duty cycle like, and what PLC hardware are you working with?

I'd guess maybe 25% to 50% duty cycle. It opens then the operator loads the parts then it closes lather rinse repete... SLC5/03 and PV550. The drive is AxiMaster 9000D...

OkiePC said:
I have done a poor man's servo very much like you describe, and I was able to maintain position accuracy within 0.1" using a 1 HP squirrel cage motor driven by an AB160 analog drive which was controlled by a PLC5 bipolar analog voltage reference, PLC triggered enable relay, and feedback was from an AMCI resolver for a total of 1024 counts for the screw which was provided about 18 inches of usable travel.

Did you have a special motor to mount the resolver on or did you have to mount the resolver some other way?

Did the analog voltage control the speed of the AB160?

Also did you use the resolver interface module for the PLC from AMCI?

This makes sense to me and that's scary...

Thanks
John
 
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I used the interface module from AMCI and the resolver mounted on the end of the screw opposite the drive end. The frame of the machien had been designed to accept the huge antique encoder, so we made adapter plates and bought the corect couplings to mount the AMCI HT-20 right in its orignal place. There was something to change the gearing so that one resolver turn equated to about the full length of travel for the screw. I can't remember if it was another gear reducer or just a chain drive...it's been several years ago...

In the PLC, the resolver position was translated into actual inches in a floating point address.

My logic that maniupulated the analog +/-10vdc reference used that scaled floating point version of the feedback to make it simple to understand.
 
The beauty of using a generic AC motor and drive is when it comes time to replace something. Using a brand name servo motor and drive usually means special cables, special software, and replacing all of it when any part of the system becomes obsolete. That is all avoided by solving problems with common, off-the-shelf parts. Then when the motor shaft snaps off or the drive gets fried, and you need to stick another brand or style or version in it's place, it is a much less painful ordeal.

JMHO
Paul
 
OkiePC said:
The beauty of using a generic AC motor and drive is when it comes time to replace something. Using a brand name servo motor and drive usually means special cables, special software, and replacing all of it when any part of the system becomes obsolete. That is all avoided by solving problems with common, off-the-shelf parts. Then when the motor shaft snaps off or the drive gets fried, and you need to stick another brand or style or version in it's place, it is a much less painful ordeal.

JMHO
Paul

I agree completely. I mentioned the above in case that BigjohnT has a couple of these lines in service and maybe a spare motor or two. He could upgrade the controls and drive and keep the existing motor(s). If he is in a panic for an upgrade this might be the way to go for now, it would give him time to source a new motor and couplings, motor mounts, etc..... When the time comes to punt the existing motor he would have the option of going with a simple TENV motor and keep the drive.

Just a thought
 
Re: encoder

Big John T said:
I found this link for vector duty motors with an encoder mounted.


John,

Because you were asking about encoder mounting earlier I'm presuming you intend to use the encoder on the motor from Automation direct. Be aware that your controls will have to be compatible with the line driver output. There are encoder signal splitters/conditioners just for this purpose.
 
milldrone said:
John,

Because you were asking about encoder mounting earlier I'm presuming you intend to use the encoder on the motor from Automation direct. Be aware that your controls will have to be compatible with the line driver output. There are encoder signal splitters/conditioners just for this purpose.

I'm open to anything at this time. I just found the encoder motors today. There is no place to mount an encoder or resolver on the machine so I need to find a motor that is ready to use an encoder or resolver. I was asking about encoder because I was not up to speed on resolvers...

John
 
kamenges said:
We use alot of Black Max and Blue Max here. We have yet to have an issue with them. They seem to be pretty good motors.


Keith

What are you using with the encoders to get position information back to your PLC?

What drives are you using to drive the Max motors.

Thanks
John
 
I'd go with the encoder. You can use it for commutation if needed as well as position feedback. The downfall is the need to reference.

If you don't think you need to operate in closed loop vector mode you could put an absolute multiturn encoder on the back of the motor. You'll need a fieldbus to get the info into a plc, though.

Personally I would go with an incremental encoder and take the hit referencing when needed.

Keith
 
Just to get this straight in my mind. If I use the Max motor with the encoder I would use the 1746-HSCE2 High-Speed Counter Module to determine position of the ram in my PLC.

The drive if equipped with analog speed input would use a 1746-NO4V or similar to control the speed of the drive and digital outputs to control the start and stop and direction of the drive.

Am I missing anything?

Thanks
John
 

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