Replace Servo with AC motor

milldrone said:
Big John,

Is this reading peak (when servo is accelerating), or constant? Single phase? Three Phase? 240 volt, 480 volt, Or?

It's peak, three phase, 240 volt.

milldrone said:
Just for gigles can you temporary install a 2hp @ 1750 145tc to the flange? And test it without breaking any thing?

That would be possible. We sent a motor off to have it analized to see exactly what it is. Hope to know by Wednesday.

milldrone said:
Is the torque that can be applied to the shaft with the machine not running the same as when the machine is running? If so can you put a temporary lever on the shaft and attach an ordinary spring scale (like you weigh fish with) 1 foot from the center line of the shaft? Then pull on the scale at 90 degrees to the temporary lever. This will give you a foot Lb. torque reading.

That would only give you the breakaway torque right? Once the machine is in motion it gets a slight load applied...

John
 
swhite65 said:
Finding out what the actual peak current is is important. Also, looking at this picture, the gearbox and shaft intertia need to be considered. Sometimes the actual torque requirement of an application is low but a large inertia mismatch can cause major problems. The rule of thumb is that the reflected inertia of the load should be no more than a 10 to 1 ratio to the inertia of the motor. The inertia of the load would represent the inertia of the gearbox and what is connected to the output of the gearbox(and technically the coupling also). The reflected inertia of the load connected to the gearbox is equal to that inertia divided by the square of the gear ratio. So if the gear ratio is 10 to 1, then the reflected inertia would be the inertia of the load divided by 100, plus the inertia of the gearbox. Compare this value to the inertia of the motor.

I apologize for the wordiness of this but if the peak current is acutally around 6 amps, then that would specify a much smaller motor from a torque standpoint. The inertia factor should also be considered.

I thank you for the information. Is inertia only those parts that can apply feed back torque when stopping? In this case the gear box stops any feed back due to it's design.

swhite65 said:
If the cycle time is such that you have a "generous" amount of time to stop within position after a move, then the inertia factor will be less important.

If we can stop it within an 1/8" that's fine so I'd call it "generous".

swhite65 said:
AC motors usually help in cases where you need a lot of motor inertia due to the construction of the rotor. Servo motors come in many styles, some very low in inertia.

Thanks I've got more to chew on...

John
 
Big John T said:
It's peak, three phase, 240 volt.
John


Big John,

As swhite65 indicated

"I apologize for the wordiness of this but if the peak current is acutally around 6 amps, then that would specify a much smaller motor from a torque standpoint."




Big John T said:
That would only give you the breakaway torque right? Once the machine is in motion it gets a slight load applied...

John

Big John,

That statement would indicate that the static torque test I suggested will not give reliable results.

From the nature of swhite65's previous posts, I believe he knows a lot more about servo's and acceleration than I do.
 
Big John:

You stated:

If we can stop it within an 1/8" that's fine so I'd call it "generous".

Yes, this is not a tight position tolerance but the other part of the question was how much time do you have acheive this position before the next action occurs?

For example, I have done servo feeds where two steel rollers are feeding/moving a sheet of steel 18 inches at a time. At the same time there is a 200 ton punch press cycling or going around in a circle. There is a window of opportunity to complete the move so the steel is stopped and in position for the "PUNCH" to take place at the "6 o'clock" position of the press. So there is no time for the servo to "hunt" finding its commanded position at the end of the move. This was successfully done with an induction motor but it could not be done with any AC drive. I had to use an ABB ACS600 (with a different software loaded) that could actually do what the position control was asking it to do.
Inertia mismatch can cause this hunting for position problem at the end of a move. This punch press application demanded quick accel and decel ramps. Your application may not be as demanding where you can come to a stop at a slower rate.
 
swhite65, in post #14 Big John states

Big John T said:
The slides are driven by a right angle gear box with a lead screw through the gear box. The reduction is such that at 2200 rpm the slides move about 18" in 5 seconds. I need to stop them +- 1/8" of the set point.

John

Is this enough info to determine if this plauseable?
 
swhite65 said:
Big John:

You stated:

If we can stop it within an 1/8" that's fine so I'd call it "generous".

Yes, this is not a tight position tolerance but the other part of the question was how much time do you have acheive this position before the next action occurs?

It's loaded and unloaded by hand and there is a pause of a second or two at the extend and however long it takes the operator to load it after the retract back I'm guessing 3 to 5 seconds to load or more...

John
 
What is actually involved in the loading and unloading? Is this meticulous or just general placement of the product. Even with this, I don't think it would matter if the position was varying a few pulses or so while the operator was loading and unloading.


So, a 145TC, 2 HP induction motor should work fine for this application. I prefer the Marathon Black Max or Blue Max with a Northstar (formerly Lakeshore) encoder mounted on the accessory shaft. But, there are a number of reliable brands that would work.
 
swhite65 said:
What is actually involved in the loading and unloading? Is this meticulous or just general placement of the product. Even with this, I don't think it would matter if the position was varying a few pulses or so while the operator was loading and unloading.


So, a 145TC, 2 HP induction motor should work fine for this application. I prefer the Marathon Black Max or Blue Max with a Northstar (formerly Lakeshore) encoder mounted on the accessory shaft. But, there are a number of reliable brands that would work.

Just general placement. I don't think it would matter if I was 1 or 2[font=&quot][/font] revolutions off with the motor...

Thanks

John
 
Sorry for coming in so late on this "juicy" post but I've just gotten back home from 4 days in the hospital getting a gall bladder out and a hernia repaired. Feeling much better already.

I've seen a number of these kind of upgrade situations over the years and agree that this job could be done well with a modern sensorless vector (yes, I would definitely use ABB's ACS800 drive) and a good TENV squirrel cage induction motor (that would be a Marathon Black Max). As you can tell, my general line here is very similar to what kamenges has been suggesting.

Getting to sizing specifics, you have to start with load speed and torque requirements. I believe that a top speed of 2100 rpm has been determined. Torque requirements are a bit unclear but 145 in-lbs has been mentioned. That is likely peak torque with some data presented that indicates a 6/1 ratio in input current peak/steady state. That would make steady state torque around 25 in-lbs. From Big John's picture (what a luxury!) I see a 143/5TC motor with a backside encoder and what appears to be a fairly open space environment around the motor (again, what a luxury!).

How here we come to a critical point. That encoder might must be a speed feedback device for the control speed loop or it might be that PLUS the position detection device for the positioning controller. If it is the former, it can be removed from the system. If it the latter, it must be reused or replaced in some way in the new system.

To size the motor, the peak torque is going to control. At 145 in-lbs, that equates to 12.1 ft-lbs. An induction motor is conservatively capable of 200% peak torque so that would be 6 ft-lbs continuous. Using the formula HP=Torque x rpm/5250 and solving for Torque, that would be a 2hp four pole motor. Checking my Marathon motor data sheet, I see that a 2hp four pole Black Max motor (part number Y551) is in a 145TC frame, is dual voltage wound at 230/460V, and has a backside mounting face for an encoder. That would be my motor choice.

The drive sizing is a bit more delicate (is that a technical term?). Clearly, it has to be 230V three phase input but if I choose a 2hp normal duty or variable torque drive I'll only get 6 x 110% peak torque. If I choose a 2hp heavy duty or constant torque drive I'll only get 6 x 150% torque. Breakdown torque in the selected motor and in general, all NEMA B induction motors occurs at about 240% nameplate amps so we need a drive capable of 6 x 240% = 14.4amps short term (five second rating would be enough here but using the 1 minute rating wouldn't hurt anything except add a little cost). Checking my drive rating data sheets, that would be a 3hp heavy duty rated 240V drive. It has a 1 minute rating of 13 amps and a 5 second rating of 24 amps). This drive is not going to need any kind of encoder to achieve the performance levels needed so that is not an issue. Braking is an issue probably so, since this drive has a built-in brake chopper, all that would be needed is a properly sized resistor. Checking my resistor sizing chart, a 22 ohm resistor with at least 285watts rating is needed for full drive capacity braking 3seconds out of every 30 seconds. That's probably more than is needed because you won't be stopping that hard. But the duty cycle is a bit higher so I wouldn't go under the 285watt rating. Resistors are cheap anyway!

We have some control issues to deal with. First is the positioning. The existing controller sounds like it works well so why not keep it. I'm guessing here but likely the existing encoder on the motor backside drives the positioning controller so why not keep it? It sounds like Big John has the ability to do some machining in his facility so why not build an adaptor flange and coupling for the old encoder and mount it on the backside of the new Marathon motor.

Next, retain the old positioning controller if it is a separate piece or, if it is buried in the existing motor amplifier/drive package, just retain the whole thing and disconnect the amplifier/drive power circuit keeping the old positioning circuitry intact. If it fails in the future, you can deal with a new positioning encoder/tach at that point. (Actually, as we speak, ABB is beginning to offer a positioning front end for the ACS800 but I have to be careful just how much I say about that on here).

The next issue to deal with is the communication signals between the old controller and the drive. I don't see any information about that in this thread so far but that shouldn't be a big deal. Basically you've got Run/Stop, Forward/Reverse, and an analog speed signal of some sort. Or, if the Run Speed is always the same, you can program the Fixed Speed on top of the Run signal and always run at the same speed. If reverse is a different fixed speed, you could program that on top of the Reverse signal. My point is that the inputs of the drive are highly configurable and, if that doesn't do it, a signal conditioner between the positioner and the drive surely would.

The one remaining issue here is to get a system properly programmed and tuned up to take advantage of its capabilities. None of the above will make anybody happy lacking that. I would suggest someone that carries an ACS800 Startup Certification, as a minimum. Let's see here---Poplar Bluffs AR, Kalamazoo MI, I could do that! But then so could a lot of other people.

Good luck!
 

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