RSL Activation disk - no more.

[mellis]

First off, I agree 100% with what Ken just said.

A couple more points...

The new Factory Talk activation scheme should be more robust than the floppy scheme it replaces under most situations. The easiest way to get your activation initially set up is via the web. But you should only have to do this once.

If the software is for a specific pc, you probably nodelock it to the MAC ID. Once you have the activation file, there is no reason to go back and reactivate from the web. It's just a file. Any backup method will work. With reasonable backup procedures in place, the only way you can be in a situation that requires reactivation is if the hardware that MAC ID is associated with is destroyed or lost. Then you have a problem that requires you to go back to Rockwell for help. But that's a pretty catastrophic situation.

That being said, there are some advantages to the floppy scheme that some of us will miss.

One place where the floppy scheme is more convenient is when you start out with it on a specific pc and then later on decide that you really prefer it on a different pc, you can move it with relatively little hassle. You can do this with the FT scheme if you plan it ahead of time, but it's kind of inconvenient if you don't. So, every few years when my pc gets replaced I may experience some extra pain. But I won't be in the field on a startup when that happens so it shouldn't be a horror story.

Another situation where the floppy scheme has an advantage for the end user is where you install your activations to a network drive and allow first come, first served access to multiple pcs. The new "floating" activation will let you do this too, and it has a better mechanism for managing the activations, but last I heard Rockwell wanted a 50% premium for each activation. That's definitely going to be perceived as an undesirable change to most users. But I'll wait and see how Rockwell responds. They already dropped the "only available in packs of 5" requirement which I think would have eliminated a lot of potential users.

Bottom line. I'll get used to the new scheme. It won't be that bad. I'll know what to expect and I'll deal with it. Most of the rants I have heard so far about it boil down to: lack of familiarity and lack of planning. And some just plain got the facts wrong. It's to be expected, nobody LIKES copy protection schemes. They are at best a nuisance to users.

 

[rsdoran]

After those analogies what can I say, except none of them had any bearing on the issue.

I am not familiar, in detail, with Factory Talk activation procedure but it is possible to use it on multiple computers. This is the FAQ for it.
http://domino.automation.rockwell.com/applications/kb/RAKB.nsf/0/F95C51E5B29FF7CF8525709F0079DA9A?OpenDocument

Using your scenario though; it is just as likely the guy may take the USB dongle, the Host ID is on, with him on vacation. It is up to you to determine what is needed to do what you have to do.

What happens if your hdd crashes at the site at 3:00 am etc, have a spare? Going to blame the laptop company and ask them for time lost?

I am not going to say anymore on the subject.

 

[mellis]

Just read Tom's post (made while I was typing)...

Tom,

I can identify with your situation. My office operates in a very similar mode. We have several people using Rockwell software and we share activations now (we keep them on the fileserver and move them to our pc when we are out of the office). We don't maintain enough activations to load everything on everyone's pc.

Node locked activations would be a royal pain for us. We're planning on going to floating activations when we are forced to (Note the use of the word "forced". I'm not thrilled about it, but I am resigned to it.) It shouldn't be that much different from the way we operate now.

It's a pain now if I forget to move an activation to my pc before I leave the office. Or I discover I need RSNetworx for Devicenet and don't happen to have that activation. About the only way I can fix that now is to VPN back to the office and jank it off the server. I should be able to do that on the new system too. They keep improving the activation server software so maybe I will be able to have someone in the office e-mail one to me in the future(that would work in more situations than VPN).

Bottom line, it doesn't have to be a lot worse than it is now. But, if you don't consider your choices carefully, you certainly can make it worse.

 

[controlled]

Let me see if I understand the new Factory Talk Activation scheme.

I am a one-man operation, so I only have 1 laptop, as well as a desktop computer. I use the laptop in the field, but in the office I use the desktop because I have a large screen LCD hooked up to it makes for a far more comfortable experience. With the new Factory Talk, am I correct in assuming that it will not work with 2 PC's because the MAC id's are different.
If this is true, this will become a MAJOR pain in the *** for smaller integrators.


Derek

 

[cookie]

I disliked RS's old activation system, and the new system is worse. It's exactly what I expect from a company that charges outrageous prices for software, then nails me for a yearly fee so I can have the privilege of calling a tech support line to hear "I dunno."

 

[mellis]

Let me see if I understand the new Factory Talk Activation scheme.

I am a one-man operation, so I only have 1 laptop, as well as a desktop computer. I use the laptop in the field, but in the office I use the desktop because I have a large screen LCD hooked up to it makes for a far more comfortable experience. With the new Factory Talk, am I correct in assuming that it will not work with 2 PC's because the MAC id's are different.
If this is true, this will become a MAJOR pain in the *** for smaller integrators.


Derek

The one-man operation has a fairly simple solution. Buy a USB ethernet NIC (not expensive, about $20). Use the MAC ID from that to set up your activation file. Put the same activation file on both pcs. Whichever pc you plug the USB NIC into, your software is activated. Note, you don't have to actually use the USB NIC for your ethernet connection, it just has to be plugged in.

The complications arise when you are sharing multiple packages with more than one person. Then the floating activation method starts to make sense. The biggest problem with that is the higher cost. I think here is where the smaller integrators are going to feel the pain. If they took away the premium for floating activations, I think I would be able to call the new system an overall improvement over the current system.

 

[theDave2]

While MAC ID's are burned into network devices, they can be easyly changed to what ever you like. Use Google to find various programs / methods.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Many are Really Missing the Point

Mellis, your solution is somewhat feasible. It doesn't address the problem of having a mixed system, though. for example, I have systems out there that have upgraded over the years. There is a mix of Micro-Logix (RSLogix 500), Compact Logix (RSLogix 5000) Panelview (Panelbuilder) Panelview Plus (RSView Studio), and RSLinx. My lap top has two USB ports. I have an expander that will give me four. With sufficient effort inconvenience on my part I can make it happen by using all of my USB ports. Of course, if another supplier has the same cavalier attitude about my needs, say for drive software, I am in deep doo-doo. Not to mention what happens if the TSA guys at the airport bust one for me. I can't put all of the keys on one unit, since that defeats the purpose of having packages split between two laptops so in the office we can work on separate projects concurrently.

Note that RSLinx Clasic is a node locked product, as is PanelBuilder, and the info on RSLogix 500 is a little nebulous.

The point is that I shouldn't have to make it happen! There are two constituencies to be served by a public company. One is the customer, one is the shareholders.

This kind of decision is driven by an internal policy of making software a profit center, regardless of the needs of the hardware departments or the customers. This policy is driven by the personal concerns of the managers, regardless of the impact on customers or shareholders. And the point I'm trying to make is that inconveniencing customers is not the way to protect the long term interests of shareholders!

Let me give a little anecdote by way of illustrating the alternative. You all know I like AutomationDirect.com for PLCs and HMI and so on. I have been an ADC customer for over ten years, since they opened the doors as PLC-Direct. I like their hardware, but there is probably better out there. I like their software, but there is probably better out there. I have them as my preferred supplier because they try to make my life easy, even if it is more work for them.

Now the anecdote: A year or so after they opened up I called Georgia with a question about a product. After a few rings someone picked it up, answered my questions, and asked what else he could do to help me. It turned out it was Tim Hohman, the top executive. I expressed surprise that he was doing tech support. His response: "I walked by when the phone was ringing, and I thought it would be a customer. The other guys were busy, and I hate to have a customer's call go unanswered."

Rockwell, Siemens, Modicon, are you listening to your customers?

The purpose of this rant is the faint hope that it might get back to some of the suppliers and manufacturers. Maybe they will get out of their cubicles and find out what customers need. I don't mind them making a good profit, I just don't want them to make my life miserable in the process.

 

[rsdoran]

Ok, I am a liar, have to say more.

Anytime a discussion about software comes up, Linux has to be mentioned, why is that?

Silly analogies about keys, tires, etc for a car, had no bearing. A better analogy would be a car and fuel, you buy a car but to make it work you have to buy fuel. You may complain about pricing but you still need it and buy it.

Way back in the early 80's I thought hardware was where the money would be, it was not, it is software. Hardware and software are 2 different entities.

I am curious, how many purchase ACAD, or similar, for thousands of dollars and expect to get a computer with it?

How often do you purchase SAP or equivalent and expect computers to come with it?

How often do you purchase any software and expect a computer to come with it?

How often do you purchase any of the aforementioned and expect a need to share it with multiple users but have it available any time you need it? Especially if the need is not at a central location?

I have never understood the concept that if you purchase a piece of hardware then all associated software should come with it. Noone ever states the opposite of that i.e. if I use Linux who will provide me the computer to put it on...want a silly example, you got it.

Drivers were mentioned, technically these days that should not be a real issue because most computer components follow standards that allow them to be installed without them being provided. That said, drivers are not software in the sense of something you work with, they are a component that is used to interface the computer and a device; software was used to develop them.

Technically when you purchase any software you do not own it, just have rights to use within the specified terms of agreement. Software is one of the most difficult properties to protect since so many want to circumvent having to buy it i.e. wants it free. As I mentioned hardware and software are 2 different entities, software development may have more of a cost then the hardware; therefore for many the process needs to be separate for business reasons.

If you do not like a businesses methods of protecting their property then you are free to do business with another company. If you are not familiar with a companies process then you should at least attempt to understand the process before making comments, especially rude and/or unbecoming ones.

This is the part that really amazes me, some of you make money because of AB products and in most cases any of the software you have was paid for when initially purchased and probably provides enough business to maintain any operating costs plus profit, OTHERWISE as a business you would not worry about having it.

If you are just an AB user's employee then what difference does it make what it cost or must be done? That is what you are being paid for.

If not an AB user, why say anything?

As adults and professionals I fail to understand why the constant need to criticize etc.

NOTE: The only thing I am affiliated with is my kids and my website.

 

[OkiePC]

I agree with Tom, but respect all the other views too. At work we have the latest and greatest no matter what it costs, because downtime is always more expensive. A/B has us by the nuts, they KNOW it and will milk it for every penny. To my knowledge it is illegal for a competitor to write programming software to talk to their machines, so, with that monopoly, they can do whatever they want. Their installed hardware base GUARANTEES them of this freedom and all the profit that goes with it.

If I were the owner of a factory or any business that used expensive software, I would use AD instead of AB and Intellicad instead of AutoCad, OpenOffice.org instead of MSOffice (thanks elevmike for that gem!) etc....

Over time, AB will lose some business to the others and maybe they will change, but probably not in my working lifetime. It's one of those things I just accept, like Bill Gates, Federal Income Tax, and Toll Booths here in Oklahoma. Like Tom, I do feel like ranting about it from time to time, although I really don't hold out any hope that someone at the top of these food chains will suddenly begin to care about the little guy...

PEC

 

[Ken Roach]

I only posted some technical details above because this thread has all the attributes on which I refrain from posting: Pierre, A-B bashing, Linux, and whining.

But reading some of these posts just has me fuming mad.

Do YOU prefer to do business with people who have very little money and tell you they would steal your product if they could, or with people who pay their bills and respect your property ?

The software and services that so many of you on this Forum hold to be worth none of your money are in fact what puts a roof over my head. So you'll pardon me if I don't hand over the keys to my home because you think "software should be free".

 

[optimus2861]

The one-man operation has a fairly simple solution. Buy a USB ethernet NIC (not expensive, about $20). Use the MAC ID from that to set up your activation file. Put the same activation file on both pcs.

Rockwell thought of that. They'll happily sell you USB dongles that you can activate against -- for $100 a pop. Quite the expense for what they admit is effectively a NIC with no ethernet connector on it. When the local Rockwell people were touting that "solution" to a group here a few months ago at an information session, one industrial rep quite disgustedly commented on the extra profit Rockwell would make selling those horribly overpriced dongles to comply with the Rockwell-enforced activation scheme that nobody in the field wants or is looking forward to, calling it a "sweet little scam", I think. One of the few times I've seen a Rockwell rep at a loss for words.

At least GE's dongles just plain work. Plug in dongle, software runs. No phone call, no internet access, no typing in 40-character gobbledegook string.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Let's make this clear

I only posted some technical details above because this thread has all the attributes on which I refrain from posting: Pierre, A-B bashing, Linux, and whining.

......................

The software and services that so many of you on this Forum hold to be worth none of your money are in fact what puts a roof over my head. So you'll pardon me if I don't hand over the keys to my home because you think "software should be free".

I reiterate, I have no objection to people profiting from intellectual property. I have no objection to creating a revenue stream from software. I didn't even object to paying several thousand dollars for the software. I understand the need to protect from theft. After all, copwritten program logic and patented technology are my bread and butter too!

What I do object to is having my ability to use that investment in a reasonable manner that is suited to my business model restricted by burdensome and intricate protection systems. The protection schemes used by manufacturers are getting more and more cumbersome, and they are inerfering with MY rights to legitimately use the software license I paid for in a reasonable and productive manner.

And please note that I was not A-B bashing. I was very careful to include other major manufacturers in my comments, since I feel it is an industry wide problem.

And, despite questioning many representatives and manufacturers, I have yet to get a reasonable answer as to why the cost of software development and support isn't amortized into product cost just like engineering and marketing costs. The PLC suppliers, after all, are lucky. Guys like Corell don't have that option and they have to put up with a lot more piracy.

If users like me don't point out our concerns, how will manufacturers learn about them? Each manufacturer has the right to choose their own way to commercialize software, and I have the right to express an opinion about it.

 

[mellis]

I think this will be my last comment as well. My intent was to clarify some info, not to defend Rockwell. But first a little history...

Back over a year ago when I particpated in a webcast intended to inform folks about how the new activation scheme would work. I had some feedback about things I thought would be problems:

No way to check a floating activation back in, you had to wait for it to expire. (no longer an issue)

Floating activations only available in groups of 5. (no longer an issue)

Floating activation premium and/or why have two kinds of activation?. This one is still an open issue with me. I think the extra cost of a floating activation will be a net upcharge for a lot of users. I think the system would be simpler if there was only one type of license and you could install it as a floating or node locked. Converting from one to the other is going to be a pain for now.

The activation dongle. The Rockwell guy giving the presentation said that people had requested a dedicated activation dongle from Rockwell and that they probably would not be able to offer it for much less than $150. People in the webcast asked if they could use a USB jump drive instead. He replied that he wasn't sure if they could make that work but that a USB ethernet NIC would probably be a more reasonable choice.

Now I don't believe that my input had much impact by itself. There were a lot of other people making the same comments, because some of the problems were obvious from a user's point of view. The point is, that Rockwell has made changes already to improve the system.

I plan to keep on talking to any Rockwell guy who will listen about what I think is still a serious problem for developers and plants in the 2-15 people range. From my point of view, they are being asked to pay more for no increase in utility. Will it make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm going to a least assure myself that they understand where I'm coming from before I give up.

 

[panic mode]

Tom you rock.
I applaud you for stating everything you did and I support it 100%.
I also wish they would listen. It looks like Mitsubishi did when they dropped recently introduced activation to their software.

Ken, I appreciate your opinion but please take a deep breath, try to relax and just pass this on. Maybe someone will listen. It's a dialogue...

I don't know about others but I work with different brands, run bunch of different software, travel a lot and change computers all the time. Transfering and backing up licences is a serious pain. There is no need for extra key or dongle when biggest dongle is purchased speratately for $10-20k and one goes through 50-60 of them a year.

But when I think about it, 80% of the 5 calls to tech support in the last few years ware about activations and moving licence. When I add to that all the time spent on installing or reinstalling software in various orders to get the upgrades or resolve conflicts, or problems caused by that paid software when it was malfunctioning, maybe I deserve to be heard at least?

And what is wrong to give plc/hmi software for free or at a low cost? What can I really do with it? Can't edit my pictures or movies, can't share them on on the web with friends, can't do VoIP, can't do anything but program plcs. Without purchasing hardware, this stuff is useless. Once installed it only eats harddrive space which is always shorter than one likes anyway. So many kids will be happy to learn on it and if they do, guess which brand they will buy when they have to use that skill.