Simoreg F 30 fault

[mhans]

Hello friends,

I have 3 DC motors and 3 Simoreg 6RA70 DC drives. These motors are operating in a "continious aluminium casting machine" for producting strip aluminium.

2 x 60 kw for the rolls
1 x 15 kw winder

For the last 1 month, the F 30 fault has been occuring at the drivers. Catalog says "commutation error"..

I ve tried :

P086 parameter : Autorestart time
default was 0,40
I made 2

P353-001 parameter : Phase fail thres
default was 40
I made 30

but it didnt work. The fault occured this morning and production has stopped again.

Why this fault occurs ? What must I do and which parameters should be changed ?

I m waiting for the experienced friends solution.

Regards,

Murat Han

 

[PLucas]

mhans


How long have these drives been installed? Have they ever worked without tripping in F30? Has the motor connected to the offending drive been changed?

I had a similar problem a while back, my problem occurred after a drive was swapped, the new drive was loaded with the parameter set from the old drive, it ran fine for a while but would occasionally trip out with F30, this was solved by re-optomising the drive. The drive optomisation runs are described in the start up section of the manual.

This might help, then again it might not.

Paul

 

[mhans]

These drivers has been installed for 6 months. And these fault has been occured for 1 - 1,5 month. They have worked without tripping in F30 for 4 months. And I don't understand why this fault occures. Everything is ok, the parameters are same since the start-up period. But I didn't change the motors and the drivers between them.

Siemens engineers said I should change the parameters P086 and P353-001. I ve changed but it didn't work and fault occured again.

PLucas ; I didn't understand what you mean with " re-optomising the drive". Can you describe it clearly ?

Thanks for you interest.

 

[PLucas]

mhans

Next time the fault occurs, have a look at visualisation parameter r047 index 1, this will contain a number (1 to 4) which will give you an extra clue to the cause of the fault.

I am still trying to work out why the Siemens Engineer told you to change parameters that are to do with the 3 phase supply, when F30 points to a problem on the DC side, I must be missing something here.

The optomisation runs for the drive are made so that the drive can 'learn' about the motor it is attached to, such as armature resistance and inductance. The procedure for carrying out the various optomisation runs is described in the start up section of the manual.

Do you have the manual for this drive?

Paul

 

[allscott]

Does this happen to be one of the 2 60KW units? If so you could try swapping either the motors or the drives, it is possible with a commutation fault that you might have a motor problem.

 

[mhans]

yes i have a manual of this drive , PLucas. And I'll look at the r047 when the fault occurs again.

allscott ; this fault occured once at the both of two 60 kW drives and once at the 15 kW drives.

1st time both 60 kW drivers
2nd time only at the 15 kW driver
3rd time both 60 kW drivers
4th time only at the 15 kW driver
.
.
.

last time one of the 60 kW driver

It has been the 8th time this fault occured for 1 - 1,5 months.
But it seems everything is OK with DC motors. Connections, armature, brushes are OK.

Do you thing this fault is about the "firing angle" or the "delay time" ??

Regards ,

 

[PLucas]

Do you thing this fault is about the "firing angle" or the "delay time" ??

Visualisation parameter r047 will tell you more, I wouldn't try to guess at the problem, although I am more inclined to think this is an overcurrent fault, if this is the case then r047 will contain a 3.



There is a way to block the drive from detecting a F30 for testing purposes, but I would be loathed to use it as you could end up with either a motor or a drive letting it's smoke out.



Paul

 

[mhans]

Well , I don't think so there is a overcurrent fault on this drive. Because during the process , we have never seen a current value higher than 250 % of the device current. As you say , It's not a good idea simulating a F30 fault with a %250 rated current .

Isn't there any possibility about the "firing angle" or "delay time" ?

Murat Han

 

[PLucas]

mhans

If you can't wait till the drive faults again you can get the fault history out of the drive.

If you have Drivemonitor software you can connect to the drive with this and read out the fault history in plain English or you can have a look at visualisation parameter U581 (2581), then look at index 65, 66, 67 and 68. make a note of what numbers are in each index. These index's contain the number of time F30 has occurred for the various reasons, each index corresponds to the number indicated in r047 index 1.

The first 64 indexes of U581 contain the dates that the last 4 communtation failures (F30) occured, so you can ignore them.
Paul

 

[PLucas]

mhans

If you can't wait till the drive faults again you can get the fault history out of the drive.

If you have Drivemonitor software you can connect to the drive with this and read out the fault history in plain English or you can have a look at visualisation parameter U581 (2581), then look at index 65, 66, 67 and 68. make a note of what numbers are in each index. These index's contain the number of time F30 has occurred for the various reasons, each index corresponds to the number indicated in r047 index 1. I would expect index 68 to be zero, unless you are running drives in parallel.

The first 64 indexes of U581 contain the dates that the last 4 communtation failures (F30) occured, so you can ignore them.

Paul

 

[mhans]

yes, I've read that from the manual too. I have drivemonitor software but in the parameter list, i can't see U581. The parameter list continues with the parameters "... U552 - U553 - U554" and list jumps to U607 - U608 - U609. Will I see parameter U581 when I get online to the Simoreg ?

This is the screen of the Drivemonitor at my computer.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20871282/screen.JPG.html

 

[PLucas]

i can't see U581. The parameter list continues with the parameters "... U552 - U553 - U554" and list jumps to U607 - U608 - U609. Will I see parameter U581 when I get online to the Simoreg ?

Good question, I don't know the answer, but I do know that if you connect up drivemonitor and select basic diagnostics you will see the fault history, not sure if it will show you the index though.

Try it and see.

Paul

 

[DickDV]

Just one other additional thought here, guys. If these drives are installed without drive isolation transformers, we may be seeing commutation faults due to an imbalanced or floating power supply.

DC drives are particularly sensitive to power supply anomolies.

 

[allscott]

As this fault is occuring on all of your drives I would attend to agree with Dick DV. I haven't dealt with a simoreg in years but I know that there are both static and rotational tuning procedures for these drives. Do you know if these procedures were performed when the drives were commissioned?


If you decide to autotune the drives make sure you read all of the warnings etc... in the book and make sure you have all of the drive paramaters pre recorded so you can see what has changed after the autotune and go back if necessary.

As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) these drives along with most digital DC drives have CT's connected on the armature output of the drive. The current through A1 must equal the current through A2 or hence a commutation fault, which is why I was suspecting possibly a motor problem

I had a similar situation with a 300HP AB 1395 DC drive. Several months after this machine was installed we started getting commutation faults. I checked everything I could think of, talked to AB several times and ended up auto tuning the drive again and the problem went away.

Hope this helps.

 

[mhans]

Hello again,

I've just looked at the U581 for 3 drivers. And I noted these values

Top roll DC motor driver

i65 -- 0
i66 -- 4
i67 -- 0
i68 -- 0

Bottom roll DC motor driver

i65 -- 0
i66 -- 3
i67 -- 0
i68 -- 0

Winder DC motor driver

i65 -- 0
i66 -- 1
i67 -- 0
i68 -- 0

i66 is : Total number of commutation failures detected by current waveform monitoring (criterion 2)

In this condition , this failure occurs because of the waveform of the current.

The amazing thing is , " we supply this drivers - also all the electrical panel - via an UPS ! " . It's very interesting to get this result.

I looked at the manual and I saw U582 :

-----------------------------------------------------------------

U582 Reaction of commutation

This parameter allows the reaction of the commutataion monitor to be programmed.

1 - Detection of a commutation failure or overcurrent results in immediate pulse blocking and generation of warning A030. The pulses are enables again after approximately 20 ms and warning A030 is reset.

2 - Detection of a commutation failure or overcurrent results in immediate pulse blocking and generation of fault message F030.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

For 3 drivers all the U582 parameters are set to "2". I want to change this parameter to "1".

Siemens engineer said , he's not experienced about this parameter but it can be tried.

I want to try this.

What do you say ?