Updating a previous post

[Peter Nachtwey]

I didn't catch the VISUAL in C++

What OS are they running?
Are the integrators using the .net version?

 

[vettedrivr]

S7Guy - If the program was written in ladder logic they would have me camped out at the line learning how they were doing things and would want recommendations on what could be changed to improve the system. If the whole thing ran like a swiss watch I wouldn't care if the language used was ancient greek, in fact I might be encouraged to learn some ancient greek on my own. I don't know if there is a hands off agreement as long as the project is under warrantee or not, I suspect not. Actually as long as things stay as they are there is no pressure on the maintenance dept to make it work right and there is no intention of sending anyone to class on the subject, which make those in maintenance feel helpless when something goes wrong.

Peter Nachtwey - The OS is Windows XP, not sure about the .net

JDBrandt - I did a web search of Vance Van Doren to read the 10 things article and couldn't find it. Could you post a link, I would be very interested it reading it. Thanks.

 

[Dua Anjing]

To answer some questions,

CharlesM / Lancie1 - We found out recently that the engineer in charge of the project had a production line installed at a previous employer and it was a mess (still is a mess). It was part of the reason for his dismissal. Some here think he is looking for vindication for that project with this one which is why he is giving this project every opportunity to start working correctly.

.

So, someone within your company hired this engineer either with the knowledge that he had managed to stuff up a previous installation or they didn't do their homework in the first place and check on his prior work history. I feel for you and for the employee's who have to live with this mess, but as far as your companies management are concerned ..

 

[bkottaras]

S7Guy - If the program was written in ladder logic they would have me camped out at the line learning how they were doing things and would want recommendations on what could be changed to improve the system. If the whole thing ran like a swiss watch I wouldn't care if the language used was ancient greek, in fact I might be encouraged to learn some ancient greek on my own. I don't know if there is a hands off agreement as long as the project is under warrantee or not, I suspect not. Actually as long as things stay as they are there is no pressure on the maintenance dept to make it work right and there is no intention of sending anyone to class on the subject, which make those in maintenance feel helpless when something goes wrong.

Peter Nachtwey - The OS is Windows XP, not sure about the .net

JDBrandt - I did a web search of Vance Van Doren to read the 10 things article and couldn't find it. Could you post a link, I would be very interested it reading it. Thanks.

How to Find the Right Control System Integrator
var deck="CSIs+differ+in+size%2C+scope%2C+and+experience+with+varying+levels+of+competence+and+expertise%2E";if (deck!=""){ document.write(restore(deck)); document.write('
');}CSIs differ in size, scope, and experience with varying levels of competence and expertise.
CSIs differ in size, scope, and experience with varying levels of competence and expertise.
Norm O'Leary, executive director, CSIA
Control Engineering December 15, 1999



Let's assume you're familiar with the many benefits a control system integrator (CSI) could contribute to your next automation project. You may need a CSI to supplement your in-house engineering resources, or for their extensive hardware, software, or application expertise. Perhaps you want to contract a guaranteed turnkey installation. Whatever your rationale, how can you find a CSI that will best fit your specific needs?

Referrals are a good starting point in any search. Talk to associates in other industries with similar manufacturing processes. Ask your contacts at distributors and manufacturers of automation products for three CSIs they might recommend. You should look for three to five CSIs to interview and subsequently qualify based on their credentials, accomplishments, and references.

Experience counts

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​

http://ad.doubleclick.net/click;h=v...k.asp?DSN=05B2D835FCE4115E37&LID=6FDBA4535E3


The "downsizing" trend in manufacturing companies throughout the U.S. has spawned a surplus of experienced engineers, who have decided to go the entrepreneurial route and start their own CSI firms. An overabundance of small, startup companies now offer system integration services to industries and applications that supposedly mesh with their background experience.

Unfortunately, it takes a lot more than good engineering expertise to survive in this profession. Lacking business, financial, and marketing skills, the survival rate for new CSIs is low. While they may perform well on small retrofit jobs, clients should be leery of committing large projects to this type of CSI for fear of overextending their personnel, manufacturing, or financial resources. Another prime concern is the continuity of the firm to ensure future service, retrofits, and system expansions.

Look to CSIA

Recognizing the necessity to improve the quality standards of this profession, a group of dedicated CSIs formed the Control System Integrators Association (CSIA) in 1994. Two major objectives of the organization are: assist members in developing effective business skills, and develop standards for sound business practices. To qualify for membership, CSIs must have over three years of business operation, exceed a minimum yearly sales quota, and operate at a profit. CSIA's goal is to have its 140-plus members recognized as the experts and leaders in their field of industrial automation.

To accomplish this, members are encouraged to measure their organization and yearly performance against CSIA's "Best Practices & Benchmarks" (BP&B). This document is a tool for assessing effective management and performance within a company and is structured to foster improvement. CSIA is currently instituting a "registration" audit process for its membership. Each CSI will be rated against the BP&B by a team of selected peer members along with an independent outside consultant. The bottom line is that CSIA members are committed to continuously improving operations. To further assist clients in selecting a CSI, the association is developing a "Guide to Control System Specifications & System Integrator Selection." This guide will be invaluable on these two subjects and a copy can be requested at the CSIA website in the near future.

Finally, a great source for locating a CSI is this issue of Control Engineering's "2000 Automation Integrator Guide." Although it doesn't list every CSI, it is probably the most comprehensive list available. In any event, you'll find more than enough CSIs to get you started on your selection and qualification process. Good hunting!

For more information, visit www.controleng.com/integrators , or see CSIA's website at www.controlsys.org


© 2005, Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Article taken form Control Engineering web site.

www.manufacturing.net/ctl/article/CA197774


I hope this helps, can't find one about 10 reasons though.

 

[Ken Moore]

Correct Name

It is Vance VanDoren (no space), he has written many articles about system integrators.

http://www.integratorguide.com/TechLib/

 

[jstolaruk]

Slightly O/T, I wouldn't put too much faith in any member of that industry group CSIA without checking with other customers first; "we" contracted one of the firms that is a member of that group and the design we received was terrible (quality) and lacking the functionality to do the job. I had to redesign 50% of it because the project manager paid off the contractor on the design before I had a chance to look at it and I lost any leverage with them. Thankfully we didn't contract the s/w with them.

 

[rdrast]

To answer some questions,

S7Guy - I agree it's not a PLC vs C++ issue, but as I stated in my first post, no one here knows visual C++ or even how to access the program to look at it. There is no plans to have anyone trained on the visual C++ language.

C++ is just a language, Visual C++ is technically a development environment, but that's just me being picky.

Even so, it is most likely an absolutely horrible design decision to base and entire line control off of a compiled and linked computer application. Online editing is impossible for one, as is online troubleshooting. Every edit requires shutting down the process, making an edit, compiling, linking, and restarting.

Then there are potential (and usual) conflicts even between debug and release builds.

I'm sorry for your issues, and if something like that were delivered here, no matter what the cost, it would be returned, or at the very least, the maintenance department would put it on completely "Hands-Off" status.

Management made a grievous error, hopefully there is someone higher up that can realize that.

 

[surferb]

I hear hamster-driven belts are quite reliable these days

If it was running like a swiss watch, it wouldn't matter if it was controlled by C++ or a bunch of hamsters-driven belts; everyone would be happy.

 

[leitmotif]

I hear hamster-driven belts are quite reliable these days

Yes they are
PROVIDED you take care of the overhead considerations
1. Who how and when feeds the hamsters
2. How do you ensure the hamsters dont get frustrated with food selection and quality?
3. How do you ensure you are compliant with all hamster labor laws?
4. Hamster retirement program

Dan Bentler

 

[STEVEBOT]

Yes they are
PROVIDED you take care of the overhead considerations
1. Who how and when feeds the hamsters
2. How do you ensure the hamsters dont get frustrated with food selection and quality?
3. How do you ensure you are compliant with all hamster labor laws?
4. Hamster retirement program

Dan Bentler

I thought this variety of drive system was best suited to night shift work, or do they design power storeage release systems for day working.

 

[leitmotif]

Obviously I am deficient in
"hammin it up"
Gotta throw a study on this and improve

Dan Bentler

 

[S7Guy]

4. Hamster retirement program

I think that would be the "shoebox buried in the backyard" treatment.

 

[widelto]

Vance Van Doren did an article years ago" "The 10 things you need to know before an automation project.", and it sounds like you broke all 10 of his rules.

Can you please tell me year and issue, i got a discussion like this with some people down here.

 

[Andybr]

Vettedrivr
However bad things seem now I suspect that your problems with this system are only just beginning. Your management may not want to hear it but they really should be looking at retrofitting a sustainable system which they/you can keep running for the life of the mechanical systems. I assume that since the software was written in VC++ it is running on some type of Windows system. Whilst I am not particularly anti Microsoft this would be worrying me for the following reasons:-

i) The operating system you are using is probably obsolete already (unless it is Vista) and if not the normal Windows lifecycle means it will be before too much longer. Getting updated drivers for custom built hardware can be almost impossible and I suspect that you have this type of system. The code for these systems is generally not well debugged and the emphasis is usually just to get it working. A new operating system usually reveals its shortcomings.

ii) The rate at which PC hardware changes will mean that the existing system will not be maintainable for the long term. Even the most fundamental components such as hard drives and IO cards may not be available in even a few years. If you have tried to get a small capacity IDE hard drive recently you will know what I mean.

These comments are based on personal experience. In recent years we have had to replace an entire DCS (not one of the mainstream suppliers systems) because we could not get a suitable floppy drive and have had to replace a number of PC controlled systems simply because suitable hardware was not available for repairs. My approach would be to try and get to grips with what you have for the time being but actively plan for replacement with a more conventional control system in the medium term.

Andybr

 

[JesperMP]

I have once done a retrofit project to follow up on someone elses retrofit project.
The original retrofit project cost 4 times our solution (no kidding) and the customer was totally displeased with it. Also, he was locked into the vendors solution because of proprietary and complex software solutions were used. The vendor has zero knowledge about the particular process so, for some parts his solutions were unnecessarily complex, for other parts there was a lack of functionality we would consider absolutely basic.

So we made a 2-step retrofit where step 1 consisted of using the old PLC hardware and the old control panels, but dumping the old PLC and HMI programs. 2nd step was exchanging all PLC hardware and control panels for new (because the physical layout of the panels and the absence of proper documentation meant troubleshooting was a nightmare).
All in all there was no stoppage for the endcustomer because the 2 step transition was done in scheduled holiday periods.
We finished the job by giving the customers own electrical maintenance people a thorough education in the system, including how the PLC program is organised.

I think that I can say that this customer was fully satisfied with how it went. I cannot disclose who the customer or the original vendor was.

The differences that made it a success were as I see it:

We had done this before.

The customer now had (expensively) learned how to thoroughly specify his requirements, both for the scope of supply, the functionality of the system, and the implementation.

Both our own attitude and the customers attitude was that we had to cooperate to make it a success. If there were minor things that had to be argued post-contract, both parts were willing to give way rather than wrangle over the text (from this you can see that the project was not in Germany).

​

Bottom line is that if you get the right vendor for the job, and a careful plan is laid out, it will be less expensive, be faster to finish, and the end result will be better than you may think right now.

In your case, you will have to plan for a more abrupt transition because of the proprietary i/o modules. This proprietary i/o may make it harder but also makes it much more urgent to dump the current system for something more industry-standard.