Wiring in Canada

[PeterW]

Peter,

I agree, I drool at the interior of panels that originate from Europe. I always state, "I wish we had an unlimited budget to build panels as the Europeans do".

Over the past few years we have built panels for large European based food processing companies, as the local Canadian offices could not afford the price of the panels originating from Europe.

Unfortunately in North America we have to deal will panel bashing shops that low ball everyone else, driving down the prices, thus driving down the quality.

I agree.

Though I did work for a local machine builder that shipped machines to Europe. I spent lots and lots of time going through CE-EU directives. A governing body approved outfit has to come in and do all the testing though in order to get CE certification, a bit too rich for the blood of most outfits around here.
WE did manage to get all the approvals on the first try though a lot of work was done up front. Wiring, line reactors/filters, VFD chokes, safety risk assesments, etc.

If your only goal is to keep the cost of labor and parts down to a bare minimum, you'll never even get close to the European panel builders.

That's what I was more or less told by my boss here, if we want to win the work we have to quote on an even playing field.

I was evem knocked back on suggesting we use ferrels as they would bump the price up. (Can't see that one myself though).

 

[curlyandshemp]

That's what I was more or less told by my boss here, if we want to win the work we have to quote on an even playing field.

I was evem knocked back on suggesting we use ferrels as they would bump the price up. (Can't see that one myself though).

Place I used to work at long time ago was against ferrules becuase it increased the amount of time to wire. Think was if an extra 10 seconds per wire was required for a ferrule and a large panel has 1000 wires, thats almost 3 extra hours of wiring.

We always use ferrules. Their worth is proven when an interposing relay is used with 24vdc on one set of contacts and 120vac on the other. I have heard of a panel that has a strand of wire touch between a 24vdc signal and a 120 vac signal on the same relay. Once relay was activated, 120 vac was now shorted to the 24vdc. PLC input cards lit up like a christmas tree.

 

[Bruce99]

We have an NEC code book but I depend a lot on NFPA 79. This is the electrical standard for industrial machinery here in the states. Does Canada have a book like this?

Yes, it is CSA for electrical but there are also other agencies here, mining has a subsection, as well as forestry.

 

[Bruce99]

Sorry to say, but from what I've seen of both American and Canadian panels, they could never get through the door in any European site.

The standards are so different

Very true, but you make the panel to the standard of the country it is going to end up in. I just wish some European panel builders would do a better job of translating their prints into english.

 

[curlyandshemp]

Very true, but you make the panel to the standard of the country it is going to end up in. I just wish some European panel builders would do a better job of translating their prints into english.

and, Canadian panel builders had the same budget as their European counterparts. A true test would be give a European company the same budget as a Canadian company then compare the results.

My belief is the EU does not have the same competive environment as North America. Over here we have those cut throat bas??rds that force others to drive down their costs. Lower costs equals lower quality.

I bet if Europe opened their doors to Third World Country panel bashers, the quality of a EU panel would drop dramaticaly. Why would a customer pay 10,000 Euro for a panel when they could pay 1,000 Euro for a Third World equivalent. Who cares what it looks like inside as long as it works.

That is what we are up against in North America

 

[PeterW]

and, Canadian panel builders had the same budget as their European counterparts. A true test would be give a European company the same budget as a Canadian company then compare the results.

My belief is the EU does not have the same competive environment as North America. Over here we have those cut throat bas??rds that force others to drive down their costs. Lower costs equals lower quality.

The EU is very competative, we just have the CE-EU directives and regulations to comply to. The panels have to be built to that standard otherwise full stop.

I bet if Europe opened their doors to Third World Country panel bashers, the quality of a EU panel would drop dramaticaly. Why would a customer pay 10,000 Euro for a panel when they could pay 1,000 Euro for a Third World equivalent. Who cares what it looks like inside as long as it works.

That is what we are up against in North America

Third world countries with cheaper labour could no doubt put out cheaper panels, there are no doors closed to them by the way.

They would still need to achieve the same standard to enable the panel to be used in the EU, the main reason they would not be used is the fact that no-one would trust them to achieve the standards (as its not the norm for them) thus making more cost to put something right before being able to apply power.

and for 'as long as it works who cares', a mixture of the electrical engineering council and the EU regulatory bodies, whose regulations have to be followed as a matter of law.

 

[bkottaras]

"They would still need to achieve the same standard to enable the panel to be used in the EU, the main reason they would not be used is the fact that no-one would trust them to achieve the standards (as its not the norm for them) thus making more cost to put something right before being able to apply power.

and for 'as long as it works who cares', a mixture of the electrical engineering council and the EU regulatory bodies, whose regulations have to be followed as a matter of law."

It is not a matter of trust as they too will have to have an outside firm (working for the governing body) to come in and do all the CE-EU testing for them.
I think it boils down to people, approach and budgets.
Most places i've done work for the sales force, project managers will have the final word on what needs to be done and believe me when the project manager says "shove that thing in there or use the side walls to make things fit" you just do it.
When clueless people get to dictate what you do or use in your panels and how much time it will take or should take I should say, it will be a disaster.
And that's out downfall, a low budget/high profit driven project management/sales force that will decide if you do or don't and when due to squeezing everything they can out of the project so the bonus will come in when the customer signs off on the project and it will be a hefty one!!

To them, "quality" and "pride" are words ONLY used in tv ads and movies nowadays.

Of course, trying to convince upper management and sales people that it won't work, well, you know how that goes. A panel is nothing but a box and you can "fill" it in whith whatever your heart desires, heck put some hooks in there so the operators can hang their coats when they show up to start their shift!!!
I've seen it all, especially when dealing with smaller outfits (I do food and packaging and they are millions of small places out there that just want a "machine").
North America is kind of an open market and if you can get away with it you just do it to please the management and everybody else.
Keep in mind that a lot of places have no clue when it comes to UL panels so you give them what you give them and as long as the system works they will be ok with it (see the cooment above about small places).
I have done it, not that I wanted to but as I mentioned above, sales force, management call the shots here.

Europeans won't back down to such requests and that's the main reason their panels look like electrical panels. Heck, have you tried convince a European machine builder to change something on one of their machines?? Even though you are the customer, they'll fight you for months and they may not even go ahead and do the change! If their design/machine has been proven in the field and they do support their design what would they? Throw in a governing body that won't back down and follows rules and regulations to the fine print of the book and there you have it.

 

[pouch]

Returning to the question of ferrules. Removing the plastic insulation would probably undermine the finger proofing of the device you are connecting to and therefore contravene any basic standard you have.

Regards to panel building in Europe. It is down to specification as to how costly the panel turns out. Some clients don't care what you put in so in goes gear that will last 12 months. Other are very particular so the competitiveness of your quote is down to your buying power.

Regards

Paul.