Have I told you guys how much I hate programming using Step7 today?

[curlyandshemp]

Cannot, for the heck of me, fathom out this 'intuitive' rubbish. I feel workinbg this side of the water is like working in the UK of the 80's. Land that time forgot.

I would love to work with Step 7 again, for me it is intuitive and by that 'I am used to it'.

Instead I have to use this Control Logix rubbish that drives me to dispair at times.

Today I had to work on a system, apparently there is a change in the program... You cannot go on-line???? WHAT!!! You cannot compare to see what the differeces are !!!!!! You MUST UPLOAD, jesus wept.... Uploading... FATAL ERROR.... That's it then SCREWED.

Not the first time this has happened to me either in one long year!!!

I'm slowly growing to hate this AB rubbish....








Or is it I am not used to it.

I here you regarding the Upload/Download thing. At one time our company was the biggest AB basher around, in the early 90s. That was one thing I used to harp about the AB stuff, I could only download a change whenever the PLC was down, that usually meant 1:00am or 2:00am on Weekends.

The one thing that bugs be about Step7, are basic features you expect from a windows based package, such as drag and drop.

If I create a ladder file in S7, and have a coil in the wrong location, I cannot find a way to drag and drop to a nedw location without going through a series of <Ctrl> this and <Ctrl> that.

Again, what you would expect in 1995, not in 2008.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

I just woke up.

I tried control q. Isn't this the same as hitting the label button on the tool bar?
In any case my SFC14 and SFC15 don't have symbolic labels yet.

I still must enter the any pointers in this format.
P#DB85.DBX0.0 BYTE 128
I thought Step7 supported symbols. I tried control q. I hit the label button in the tool bar. There is a menu item where I have all the symbols enabled. I will get the program to run today. I made a FB85 that has the SFC14 and SFC15. The 128 input and output bytes are stored in stat variables InRegs and OutRegs is where the commands and date is to be transfered to the controller.

BTW, many years ago I complained about how to create the DBs for the FBs. This time I remembered that clicking on the ??? above the FB85. This generates the DB85 but that is the problem. Why not right click on the FB?. You need to remember the secret click places to use Step7.

In the diagnostic buffer screen, click on IStack. This probably the most useful debugging tool in S7. I've never had to remove lines of code to troubleshoot code.

I will look for that. I know about the diagnostic buffer. I didn't see any errors listed in the dialog box. Our product pops up a message from the status bar that you click on and it opens the event log so you must go out of your way to ignore the errors.

There is sort of a ping function. From Simatic Manager, there is a "Display Accessible Nodes" function. If you can't see the PLC there, then you simply don't have a connection.

Yes, but it doesn't tell you if the hardware is working or the software just isn't configured. Step7 was telling me the hardware was damaged.

So this is how I would do it.

1: Create project
2: Insert PLC-station (I take it you have a S7-313C 2DP, so select S7-300 station)

I have a S7-315 2DP. My customer has a S7-313 2DP

3: In the S7-300 station double click on Hardware
4: Once HWConfig is open, right pane, navigate to the S7-300, then rack and Double click on rail.

What I can't drag a connection to the S7 Icon? What about right clicking.
What tells me that is what I need to do next.

5: On right pane navigate to S7-300 CPU's, select S7-313C 2DP, drag it to Slot nr 2.
[/quote]
So I am magically supposed to know I can drag it instead of double click.
What tells me that is what I need to do that next.

6: Upon dragging the CPU here a pop-up window appears asking for the specifics of your Profibus DP network. Add new network with the Add button, configure it as you would in NetPro. Once configured, select that network, select PLC node adress and click ok.
7: I'm assuming the GSD is installed, if not install it now.
8: Right pane > Profibus DP > Additional Field Devices > Motion-Controller > Select RMC150 and drag it to the newly created Profibus DP master system, shown in the upper window.
9: Pop-up window appears asking for Node adress, select 5, I think you wanted and click ok
10: Right pane double click on I/O Mode (32 regs)

I will check this out. What bothers me is that in step 8 it shows the motion controller but not all the configuration options.

11: In the bottom window you should now see the I/O Mode (32 regs) and their adress, being 256-383. Double click that line and change the adress to your liking. Taking into account the CPU range and the already used adresses. Click ok
12: Save and Compile
13: Download

I forgot to add the step where I need to right click on the RMC Icon and go to object properties and set the word order. The word order is not part of the Profibus DP specification. It is in the DPV1 spec. The word order must be set to MSW.

Jeebs, I will try your streamlined version and try doing this without the Netpro. Now that I have done it and documented it this should take about 5 minutes the next time. I am willing to do this in the effort to save our customers hours.

Now where is this procedure in the S7 help? There are bits a pieces but nothing that strings the whole procedure together. That is my complaint.

I tried using LAD. I will remake the project using STL so I can cut and paste it into here if I still have problems after today.

In response to a long criticism against STEP7 in particular and praise of PCs and the C language:

Actually, PCs are on my s-list too. I am getting rid of my Dell running Vista at work. I am going to buy a Mac Pro today and will install Fusion and Win XP for when I must do windows things. My current 2.4 Mhz dual core Dell pi$$ed me off for the last time too. It is running Vista. It is slow and goes to sleep for a minute at a time even while the idle is at 99%. My IT guy says it has 'issues'. I have been torturing the IT guy with every little problem that Vista has. I am sure it contributed to my problems with getting the MPI adapter to work. I refuse to work with inferior tools and I don't put up with much and would be unemployable if I didn't work for Delta. I moved my virtual machine to my laptop that runs XP as the host. Then the MPI adapter started to work. I like working on my desktop because I have 2 24 inch monitors whereas the laptop has only a 17 inch screen.

I have an Mac at home and it has been the most reliable computer I have ever had. My Dell at home has never run for more than a year without crashing and needing to be re-installed. I use it now only for cruising the web and playing games so if it crashes nothing important is lost.

I am an equal opportunity discriminator. Tools are there to help. Tools that cost you more time than the save are not tools, they are garbage.

 

[JesperMP]

About double-clicking and dragging-and-dropping:
You can do both.
Either select whatever it is you want to do something to (a slot in a PLC rack, or a network), and then doubleclick the part from the hardware catalog that you want inserted.
Or pick the part in question from the hardware catalog, drag it to the target slot or network and drop it into place.

About the symbols for SFC14 and SFC15:
It is a bit strange that you dont get the symbols, if I make an empty project from scratch, and write CALL SFC14, I get the symbols automatically.
What if you copy SFC14 and SFC15 from the standard library ?

Peter, did you notice my comments about data consistency ?
Do you need consistency for the complete block of 32 doublewords ?
Just warning you about a potential problem on the road ahead.

Now where is this procedure in the S7 help? There are bits a pieces but nothing that strings the whole procedure together. That is my complaint.

There is a FAQ on Siemens support site about installing GSD files.
You can find a lot of help on the support site, wether it is just to get started, or if it is for a particular obscure error situation.

 

[S7Guy]

I tried control q. Isn't this the same as hitting the label button on the tool bar?
In any case my SFC14 and SFC15 don't have symbolic labels yet.

Control-Q will toggle symbols if the symbols exist. But you have a different problem if the function is displaying something like IN0 for the parameters. As I said, delete them from your code and from block list, and type them again. Maybe you dragged them in from another project that had uploaded the functions.

I still must enter the any pointers in this format.
P#DB85.DBX0.0 BYTE 128
I thought Step7 supported symbols. I tried control q. I hit the label button in the tool bar. There is a menu item where I have all the symbols enabled. I will get the program to run today. I made a FB85 that has the SFC14 and SFC15. The 128 input and output bytes are stored in stat variables InRegs and OutRegs is where the commands and date is to be transfered to the controller.

S7 supports symbols very well. In fact, 99% of my code is in symbolic format now.

Your pointer will be displayed symbolically if the data you are pointing to exists as a discrete data area (for lack of a better term).

For instance, create a udt of 128 bytes. Drop it in your DB at byte 0. Save. Now, when you enter DB85,dbx0.0 Byte 128, it will display symbolically.

If the data length can change, then you will have to create dynamic pointers. But this is easy too, since usually only one or two variables need to be modified.

Another option is SCL. I don't use it, but I can see how it could be useful. I am just very comfortable with pointers, and since I program symbolically anyway, I just didn't get much benefit from it.

BTW, many years ago I complained about how to create the DBs for the FBs. This time I remembered that clicking on the ??? above the FB85. This generates the DB85 but that is the problem. Why not right click on the FB?. You need to remember the secret click places to use Step7.

It sounds like you are using ladder. Personally, I never use it, and I have heard complaints about it.

Give STL a try for your non-boolean logic. I don't use IDBs either, but in STL I am pretty sure that if you try "CALL FB85, DB85", it will just generate the IDB for you.

I will look for that. I know about the diagnostic buffer. I didn't see any errors listed in the dialog box. Our product pops up a message from the status bar that you click on and it opens the event log so you must go out of your way to ignore the errors.

Take a look at the display options for the buffer. Maybe the things you care about are turned off.

The special OBs are used to trigger events for displays when there are programming errors. But in the development environment, just do a Control-D to jump to diagnostics.

Yes, but it doesn't tell you if the hardware is working or the software just isn't configured. Step7 was telling me the hardware was damaged.

Yeah, as Jesper said, that's just some crappy Ginglish. I agree, it's inexcusable in 2008. All it's saying is that it can't connect, which is about as useful as seeing a no reply on a ping.

Use the "Check Accessible Nodes" if you have problems. If your node isn't there, then go to PG-PC Interface Settings and try changing the MPI address of your adapter. I have had to do this before on USP devices for some reason, but not on any other type of adapter.

 

[L D[AR2P#0.0]]

Here's an example call to sfc14 using a named variable:

 

[parky]

Why does S7 have to be so hard (or lengthy) to configure, it's the same with siemens simatic net, It took me ages to figure out how to configure this on an IFIX scada app, it falls over quite regulary, even the MAC address has changed itself twice, lost it's configuration three times & totaly screwed itself so a re-install was required once, it takes 2-3 mins to check hardware before it loads so cannot put IFIX in startup or it does not communicate.

Using the S7A driver or kepware works just as good, does not fall over & is so easy to configure.

 

[bkottaras]

And there is the problem. I don't have the time when customers are waiting for the answers. We don't have the time to learn any PLC very well because our customers use so many different kinds. We have an electronic zoo with PLCs and HMIs instead of animals. From our vantage point we can see that some PLCs and HMIs are easier to learn and support than others.

It would be so easy to say that all you need to do is set the Profibus DP node address in our product. Call the PLC tech support for information on how to configure the Profibus and how to write a program that transfers a 1000 point cam table through a few Profibus DP registers. If we did that then many of the customers would give up in frustration.

You imply that all IDEs are the same. That just isn't so. We all will have our preferences and IDEs have different strengths an weaknesses.

I'm with S7guy on this one.
Customers and sales people are driving us up a wall. If you don't have the time, tell the sales people and customer that they can "roll out their own code" in a few minutes as they seem to know what it takes and how long it takes.
If you need the time to familiarize yourself with the software package chosen for the application, you have to have the time to do so.
I'm in the same situation where sales force quotes projects that cannot be done within a week or two but we suffer the aftermath as there's "no backing down" since deadlines are deadlines.
Though, nobody bothers to ask what it'll take to get it done. Just "shoot them a quote" and all is well.
If it was so easy, "baggers" at local Jewel/Osco (stolen quote!!) and cab drivers would be able to roll code while enjoying their coffee break.

 

[curlyandshemp]

Peterw i have read alot of your posts, and you always seem to put down something about North America (low panel standards, place that time forgot etc.) If this is such a horrible place to live, why are you here?????????

Its probably for the same reason people would boo Orr and Gretzky

 

[allscott]

About time we got some heat around here, it's been kind of boring lately.

 

[PeterW]

Peterw i have read alot of your posts, and you always seem to put down something about North America (low panel standards, place that time forgot etc.) If this is such a horrible place to live, why are you here?????????

The reasons I'm here are not work related believe me.

I just never expected it to be so dated as far as engineering goes. I don't know if this is in all industry or just the one I'm in.

A lot of the reasons I believe is because the regulations here are not up to the same standard as ours in the UK, over the past 20 years we have come on leaps and bounds. Without these regulations then equipment will be built to a standard to be 'competative' and I understand this, so I believe until industry is forced to improve it will not.

Honestly, the recent 'brand new' installations I have worked on, mainly in the US, are to the standard I last worked on in the UK in the late 80's.

By this I mean panels that are not finger safe, centralised control panels (non distributed and huge, similar to the ones I remember from the 80's), cables all run in conduit and/or trunking as single cores, 120VAC control, E-Stop circuits that don't stop all equipment around it, the list can go on. Its all eye opening for me.

I've been trying to persuade our PM to ensure we use ferrels on the stranded cables, just a small improvement, he refuses point blank as it will effect the profit!!

You need to go and look at a modern UK installation to see the difference.

Regarding the different PLC's, people like what they are used to, a lot of people don't like Siemens because it is so different. Personally I prefer it as it allows a far superior ways of structuring your code, unfortunately if your not used to it you don't recognise it and don't take advantage.

At the moment, I'm daily cursing AB, but in the end its a good PLC, which I don't yet have enough experience of.

What's that old saying, if you know it its easy.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

I'm with S7guy on this one.
Customers and sales people are driving us up a wall. If you don't have the time, tell the sales people and customer that they can "roll out their own code" in a few minutes as they seem to know what it takes and how long it takes.
[/qote]
It doesn't work that way here. I am the Pres and head engineer. The buck stops with me. BTW, my customer that needed this information got his system going and is happy. I am not because it took three days to get him going.

If you need the time to familiarize yourself with the software package chosen for the application, you have to have the time to do so.

We don't chose the PLCs the customer use.

I'm in the same situation where sales force quotes projects that cannot be done within a week or two but we suffer the aftermath as there's "no backing down" since deadlines are deadlines.
Though, nobody bothers to ask what it'll take to get it done. Just "shoot them a quote" and all is well.

It isn't the same problem. I your case you are fighting your own problems. I my case I an fighting other peoples problems. If the problem was with our product then we would have the answer and the fix if required in no time. In this case the problem isn't with our product.

If it was so easy, "baggers" at local Jewel/Osco (stolen quote!!) and cab drivers would be able to roll code while enjoying their coffee break.

That misses the point. I am an experienced programmer but this is not a programming problem, this is a tools problem. This should be easy as the example posted above by L D[AR2,P#0.0]. My example looks similar except I tried using LAD. I have had Profibus DP examples for the earlier products since about 1997 or 1998. I write a new example program every time we make a new product because most of our customers have problems doing it themselves. The problem I have is that it has been so long since the previous time I programmed a S7 I must learn to use the Step7 from scratch. Each time it has been painful so my desire to use it has been less and less.

I still haven't figured out what button turns the SFC14 to DPRD_DAT in my function. Do I need to enter the symbol myself? It certainly looks like it.

Back to making my program work or more precisely, why it doesn't work. It really is a simple as L D[AR2,P#0.0]'s example.

 

[bkottaras]

That was not directed to your ability as a programmer.
My point (as S7Guy described) was that if the interface and "plug and play" stuff was as easy as 1-2-3, then anyone could just roll their own code.
If there was a software package that you could push a button on the toolbar and get a function going or such then blame software developers and companies for not pursuing it.
Nothing personal.
I have yet to see such a straight forward interface myself with any of the PLC software programming packages I've used.

 

[PeterW]

I have yet to see such a straight forward interface myself with any of the PLC software programming packages I've used.

Exactly, and when you are used to a particual brand, you find your way through it easier and quicker.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

It is working but now I have improvements to make.

It was as easy as L D[AR2,P#0.0] indicated. I can see four axes of data update inside the S7 now. Now the fun part begins.

That was not directed to your ability as a programmer.
My point (as S7Guy described) was that if the interface and "plug and play" stuff was as easy as 1-2-3, then anyone could just roll their own code.

The marketing side of me says that would be a good thing and why I bother to ask for opinions here. I want to make motion control so easy a bag boy or cave man can do it. If the motion control was limited to PHDs then my list of potential customers would be small.

If there was a software package that you could push a button on the toolbar and get a function going or such then blame software developers and companies for not pursuing it.

I do as you can see.

Nothing personal.

No problem. I am a big boy.

I have yet to see such a straight forward interface myself with any of the PLC software programming packages I've used.

What would you like to see? What don't you like? I have copied many ideas from this forum into our product. That is why I am here. For instance, some mentioned saving the source code on the PLC. We save the source code to the program in the motion controller. Memory is cheap. A few days ago I was asking about a means of copying data. I have seen all the threads about how Rockwell's COP command can't move registers up by one without filling all the data with the first value. Our version will allow on to move data up by one register without copying the first value into all the registers. I see the struggle that so many have with scaling. We added a scale wizard. I see the problems people have with tuning PIDs. We added a tuning wizard or auto tuning.

I listen and take notes.

 

[Bob A.]

Could not let that one pass...

The worst thing that ever happened to the control industry was when incompetent idiots began trying to make things "finger-safe". Now you have to disassemble 6 layes of useless **** just to check a power supply. And try to clip on a scope probe to monitor the performance of some specialized sensor installation.

If you don't know where not to put your fingers, then you are in the wrong line of work! Take all that NEC junk and drop in in the deepest part of the ocean.

But then that's just my opinion, I could be wrong and it would not be the first time.

How is that for stirring the pot...

Bob A.