You are not registered yet. Please click here to register!


 
 
plc storereviewsdownloads
This board is for PLC Related Q&A ONLY. Please DON'T use it for advertising, etc.
 
Try our online PLC Simulator- FREE.  Click here now to try it.

New Here? Please read this important info!!!


Go Back   PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > LIVE PLC Questions And Answers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 20th, 2023, 02:49 AM   #1
alexbeatle
Member
United States

alexbeatle is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 184
PLC Ethernet/IP Network Layout Suggestions

Hello, folks.
Looking for suggestions on network layout.
I'm designing 3 stations with 6 pieces of conveyor on each. They are part of the same system so will share a PLC. Thinking this way.
Station:
#1. PLC, Local IO, 6x VFDs
#2. Remote IO, 6x VFDs
#3. Remote IO, 6x VFDs

RemoteIO is for sensors and buttons. VFDs are for the conveyor motors.

I think I'm gonna go with Rockwell - ControlLogix, PointIO, and PowerFlex525.

Problem(-ish): The stations are not very close to each other. So in order for all to communicate, I'd need to install an Ethernet switch at station #1 and then run 7 Ethernet cables (PointIO + 6x VFDs) to station #2 and 7 Ethernet cables (PointIO + 6x VFDs) to station #3.
Could anybody please suggest a more elegant solution?
Thanks in advance.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 03:33 AM   #2
cardosocea
Member
United Kingdom

cardosocea is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fields of corn
Posts: 2,259
fibers between PLC and remote IO, a dedicated switch on each to distribute from fiber to ethernet on a DLR configuration.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 03:37 AM   #3
AlfredoQuintero
Lifetime Supporting Member
Japan

AlfredoQuintero is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Yokohama
Posts: 1,208
The 6x VFDs and remote IO in #2, how far are they from each other? Same for the #3?


If these devices support two Ethernet ports and they are Rockwell devices, the device is itself a switch so you can daisy chain them.


But if the LAN cable needs to be longer than 100 mts you will need to put some switch in between. Also, is any of these segments going outise the building? In this case some fiber optic converter would be a good advice to protect against lighting? I think we need more details in terms of which kind of EtherNet/IP devices, whether they are industrial grade, distances, etc., so that more meaningful advice can be provided.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 11:47 AM   #4
JERA
Member
Denmark

JERA is offline
 
JERA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 314
#1.
Switch with Fiber interface
Ethernet cable for PLC, Local IO and 6x VFDs
|
Fiber
|
#2.
Switch with Fiber interface
Ethernet cable for Remote IO and 6x VFDs
|
Fiber
|
#3.
Switch with Fiber interface
Ethernet cable for Remote IO and 6x VFDs
|
Fiber - return to #1. for ring connection (separate cable)

Switch
https://www.moxa.com/en/products/ind...ds-516a-series

Safe and solid solution ��

Last edited by JERA; January 20th, 2023 at 11:59 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 03:10 PM   #5
alexbeatle
Member
United States

alexbeatle is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by JERA View Post
#1.
Switch with Fiber interface
Ethernet cable for PLC, Local IO and 6x VFDs
|
Fiber
|
#2.
Switch with Fiber interface
Ethernet cable for Remote IO and 6x VFDs
|
Fiber
|
#3.
Switch with Fiber interface
Ethernet cable for Remote IO and 6x VFDs
|
Fiber - return to #1. for ring connection (separate cable)

Switch
https://www.moxa.com/en/products/ind...ds-516a-series

Safe and solid solution ��
This looks awesome! Why fiber instead of copper though?
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 03:54 PM   #6
Operaghost
Member
United States

Operaghost is offline
 
Operaghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 3,809
Fiber isn't necessarily required. It is mainly for distance. Copper is limited to 100 meters before a repeating device (switch) is required.

OG
__________________
I despise when people take random quotes and ascribe them to me - Julius Caesar
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 05:03 PM   #7
TheWaterboy
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
United States

TheWaterboy is offline
 
TheWaterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: State of Denial
Posts: 1,538
in addition Fiber is immune to RF interference. If that factors in.
__________________
. . .Nostalgia used to be so much better . . .
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 05:41 PM   #8
mobil1syn
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

mobil1syn is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: socal
Posts: 74
does that moxa switch support DLR?
  Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2023, 07:20 PM   #9
the_msp
Lifetime Supporting Member
United Kingdom

the_msp is offline
 
the_msp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1,141
I don't think any Moxa switch supports DLR, turbo ring etc is a different technology.
__________________
Regards,

Patrick G. B.Eng MIET

Making the flashy lights flash since the 90's

SCADA - Inductive Automation Gold Integrator | PLC | Control Panels | Robotics | Training

Connect with Matrix Engineering

My son was chewing on an electrical cord, so I had to ground him. He is doing better currently and conducting himself properly. My electrical skills are quite poor, which is a shock to some people
  Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2023, 09:38 AM   #10
cardosocea
Member
United Kingdom

cardosocea is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fields of corn
Posts: 2,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexbeatle View Post
This looks awesome! Why fiber instead of copper though?

Peace of mind.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2023, 10:56 AM   #11
JERA
Member
Denmark

JERA is offline
 
JERA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 314
When using fiber cable, you are not locked by the length of Ethernet cables and you do not have to take into account an electrical potential difference that may exist between boards.

VDFs can generate electrical noise and this is not carried around the entire system when using fiber. Long Ethernet cables can also be a problem in terms of electrical noise, so always use as short cables as possible and always shielded cables.

DLR is only useful if you have several IO modules where you get a ring connection at the IO level. In the solution I have proposed, there is a ring connection between switches, so there is a high uptime on the connection to these.

The Moxa switch Supports EtherNet/IP and Modbus TCP protocols for device management and monitoring.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2023, 06:34 PM   #12
alexbeatle
Member
United States

alexbeatle is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_msp View Post
I don't think any Moxa switch supports DLR, turbo ring etc is a different technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JERA View Post
When using fiber cable, you are not locked by the length of Ethernet cables and you do not have to take into account an electrical potential difference that may exist between boards.

VDFs can generate electrical noise and this is not carried around the entire system when using fiber. Long Ethernet cables can also be a problem in terms of electrical noise, so always use as short cables as possible and always shielded cables.

DLR is only useful if you have several IO modules where you get a ring connection at the IO level. In the solution I have proposed, there is a ring connection between switches, so there is a high uptime on the connection to these.

The Moxa switch Supports EtherNet/IP and Modbus TCP protocols for device management and monitoring.
So I will not be able to replace the PointIO with the ArborBlock I/O configured in DLR?
  Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2023, 06:45 PM   #13
mobil1syn
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

mobil1syn is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: socal
Posts: 74
DLR is AB's protocol to monitor network health and if setup properly will tell you when a node is not responding. you can include NON-DLR components but they cant be back to back.

you need to make the decision if you are going fiber or ethernet because that will dictate component selection.

i used these on a project, they do media conversion and support DLR
https://hirschmann.com/en/Hirschmann...s_/index.phtml

https://literature.rockwellautomatio...t007_-en-p.pdf

Last edited by mobil1syn; January 24th, 2023 at 06:55 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2023, 03:46 PM   #14
alexbeatle
Member
United States

alexbeatle is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 184
Personally, I want to go fiber. Many Reasons - no cross talk, electrical isolation, longer length, etc.

My concern is that in case of damaged fiber cable, maintenance will not know what to do -> downtime. With copper, just replace it.

Has anybody worked with the https://paigedatacom.com/gamechanger? Claims to have limit of 250m, instead of regular Ethernet cable - 100m.

I'm considering Stratix 5700 switches. They are quite versatile. Also have combo ports, which I can configure for copper or fiber. Has anybody had issues with these?
  Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2023, 05:00 PM   #15
mobil1syn
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

mobil1syn is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: socal
Posts: 74
if the process is of high importance, pull spare fiber lines during construction and/or have spare cables made and stored in the event something is damaged.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
Jump to Live PLC Question and Answer Forum


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
More questions about RSemulator, PLC network, and career path... timcph2008 LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 0 March 8th, 2018 01:04 PM
Wireless PLC Network allenz2123 LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 6 October 30th, 2014 12:23 AM
Rs logix 5000 varunmahendran91 LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 4 October 6th, 2014 03:26 PM
Plc suggestion aec LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 36 January 2nd, 2012 02:56 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:14 AM.


.