Ethics of modifying PLC programs on unsafe machines

arpus4KM said:

The catch-all would be that every single quote for work includes a blurb that your company takes no responsibility for safety of the machine after work is completed. But how many have that?

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I think that is the way to do it.

Similar, if you actually did deliver the machine originally, be sure to have in the contract that for the customer to operate the machine himself, he must sign a hand-over certificate that the machine was safe at the time of hand-over.
That piece of paper has saved my a** in the past !

I work on stamping presses. Ethics doesn't play any part of my work. Fear does.



If I work on a press and 30 years later it injures or kills someone, even if 60 other people have worked on it after me, I will be criminally charged and civilly sued for wrongful death or causing an injury. It might be something I did combined with something someone else did 25 years later that caused the death, so there's no getting a dismissal from the charges or lawsuit.



If I go to a machine that I determine isn't safe I write a letter to the customer detailing what I found and state that I will not work on that machine until it is brought into safe operations. Plus I archive a copy of the letter.



If I even replaced a fuse or a socketed relay I found bad on an unsafe machine it opens me to liability over the controls on that machine.

I_Automation said:

If I go to a machine that I determine isn't safe I write a letter to the customer detailing what I found and state that I will not work on that machine until it is brought into safe operations.

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What if there is something unsafe that you did not notice and thus did not report ? How can you prove that you did not know it ? The fact that you in other cases did report safety issues implies that you are an expert that should have noticed any safety issues.

What you US guys describe sounds impossible to work with. If you touch a machine you didn't deliver, you are liable. If you deliver a machine and someone subsequently else touches it, you are liable.
I can understand that if the is an accident, the investigation may include anyone that has been involved with machine. But automatically you get charged. Are you not innocent until proven guilty ?

I do agree that one must report when when one sees an obvious safety issue. But other than that, I cannot take responsibility for a complex machine that may have hidden safety issues.

arpus4KM said:

This all sounds good... But the reality is that Most machines don't meet every safety standard, and it's impossible to have to be any kind of call-in service engineer while questioning every single job that comes up to the point where a lot of places don't have original drawings, or prints for a machine.

The catch-all would be that every single quote for work includes a blurb that your company takes no responsibility for safety of the machine after work is completed. But how many have that?

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If you have concerns about so many practices at the site (s) then you have to consider, do you want to work there knowing that one of my colleagues will get killed or injured.

Take your concerns to management and HSE reps on Site, along with documented proof if the situation doesn't improve drastically- QUIT siting your reasons as you do leave. If management can't take you seriously; what do you think will happen if someone gets killed -they'll will blame everyone else.

JesperMP said:

. Are you not innocent until proven guilty ?

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Not at all.


I know a used machinery dealer that got involved in a sale of a machine that the original sale fell through.


It was crated in Germany and shipped to UK for transport when the deal fell trough and sat in UK for a year unopened.


A sale was finally made using 3 dealers - my friend was dealer #2 in the sale. He never saw the crates let alone opened them or saw the machine. Plus the crates were never in Michigan, our state. They went to New York port and were trucked to the customer in Minnesota (I think, or Wyoming)



The customer opened the crates and assembled the machine without schematics or manuals - and it immediately killed someone.


All 3 dealers were criminally charged with wrongful death, he had to hire a lawyer in the city the suit was in and fly there for court appearances many times. The judge would not dismiss the charges against him as he never touched the machine or instructed the buyer on how to assemble and operate it.


A year and half fighting the criminal charges that cost him over $100,000 (lawyer, fees, flights, hotels, etc.) on a $20,000 sale and in the end the buyer was found 100% at fault.


The propaganda that a person is innocent until proven guilty only exists outside courtrooms in the USA.

JesperMP said:

What if there is something unsafe that you did not notice and thus did not report ? How can you prove that you did not know it ? The fact that you in other cases did report safety issues implies that you are an expert that should have noticed any safety issues.

What you US guys describe sounds impossible to work with. If you touch a machine you didn't deliver, you are liable. If you deliver a machine and someone subsequently else touches it, you are liable.
I can understand that if the is an accident, the investigation may include anyone that has been involved with machine. But automatically you get charged. Are you not innocent until proven guilty ?

I do agree that one must report when when one sees an obvious safety issue. But other than that, I cannot take responsibility for a complex machine that may have hidden safety issues.

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In the US, technically, each company is responsible for their own safety program that complies with OSHA standards. If there is a machine purchased and they don't bother doing a safety evaluation to meet their standards, then thats on them. Same thing with their own mechanics working on machines, if someone bypasses a safety, it's on that guy who bypassed it. But if the company takes ownership of a machine and fails to evaluate it before allowing it into production then they are liable.


I heard all kinds of "What if" stories from the crane industry as well, but the only case i've ever seen (case law on the internet) where the technician was actually liable was where an operator wanted to get a final lift done, and the tech on site bypassed a bad upper limit so he could make the lift and give it back to him after. during the lift something failed and it snapped a rope, killing someone.

mad4x4 said:

If you have concerns about so many practices at the site (s) then you have to consider, do you want to work there knowing that one of my colleagues will get killed or injured.

Take your concerns to management and HSE reps on Site, along with documented proof if the situation doesn't improve drastically- QUIT siting your reasons as you do leave. If management can't take you seriously; what do you think will happen if someone gets killed -they'll will blame everyone else.

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I think you missed the point though. Its not always a deadly concern, sometimes it's just an injury concern because a machine used to meet regulation but doesn't anymore. If everybody flat out refused to work on a machine until the safety was upgraded.... there would be no business anymore, it's just not feasable so there has to be a middle ground, which I thought was with the company who owns the machine who is responsible for the safety of their employees. They must follow OSHA standards and are ultimately responsible for ensuring a machine meets the safety standards they came up with, which have to be at least the bare minimum for whatever process it is.

Thanks for the responses everyone!

So would you say that taking the "I'm not touching it until its fixed" is enough then? If the machines are illegal and the management has been informed, does this fall on their plate or should the controls engineer pursue shutting down the machine(s) in question?

The machines may be up and running for years already and do I think they are going to explode and hurt someone in the next 6-9 months until they get overhauled? No, but is that enough or could the controls engineers still be held liable if something were to happen? Is there any legal precedent or code that I could specifically reference in a response to the employer? Usually the business types just don't get it and reply with "well, we won't hold you liable so you can still do what we want, no?"

Not sure it is relevant in the US but in the UK this is something the health & safety executive say about it

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/refurbished-modified-machinery.htm

the company who owns the machine who is responsible for the safety of their employees.

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That is true.

But, under U.S. law, once an injured employee accepts the Worker's Compensation insurance settlement, the employer's financial responsibility is done. However, the injured party can still sue anyone else who may be liable. To the lawyers, that generally means anyone they can find who carries insurance. They're not really interested in someone whose only asset is a quarter million dollar house with a 200K mortgage.

ElectricalHammer said:

, does this fall on their plate or should the controls engineer pursue shutting down the machine(s) in question?

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If you are an employee of the company it would be the company's liability. Employees are not responsible for the company's policies or actions, especially if ordered to do something.



If you are a contractor called in to work on an unsafe machine then you could assume liability if you worked on it.


As an employee telling the employer something is unsafe is going to fall on deaf ears - it's running and making us money as it is, why waste money on nothing that increases production?

ojz0r said:

I wouldn't touch it with a 3.06m pole, just to be sure @ASF touches it first.

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Where are you going to find a 10 foot, 25/64 inch pole?

i just thought of something else in regards to the upgrade,
you CANNOT pick and choose what to fix. you fix all the issues or don't touch it. you just can't fix a little here and later do a little more.
james

ASF said:

Where are you going to find a 10 foot, 25/64 inch pole?

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There are no inches in the civilized world, only meters

Correction:

ojz0r said:

There are no inches in the civilized third world, only meters

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