Control Panel Pictures

[BryanG]

Something that might help you when you are stuck for space are angled DIN rail brackets.
http://www.dinmountingrail.com/Page.aspx?page=19&content=Din Rail Brackets

It makes your job a bit harder when wiring terminals, but makes it a lot easier for the man wiring out of the box.

 

[Goody]

I'd like to bet that there aren't many people that have realised too late that they have too much to cram in to the available space.
Correct panel sizing without software assistance is an art gained from experience.

And what always suffers when space is tight? yep the bottom terminal strip.

 

[JesperMP]

IMO jtashaffer's panel has enough space for the components used. It is the way the components are placed that is inefficient.
In addition to that, the components could have been selceted with a thought to the available space.
For example, the 110V dual receptable is huge. Surely there must be a more compact one. And is it necessary that it is a dual ?
Also, cage clamp terminals could have saved a lot of vertical space, apart from being better in every other respect.

edit: In the olden days when we used screw terminals, we did use the angled DIN rail brackets that BryanG mentions. But even with the angled position of the terminals, still not as easy and secure to insert wires as with cage clamps. And the angled terminals does nothing to save height.

 

[jblkiller]

Why that in the several panel we see Sola power supply? Why Sola? Better than Idec? or Weidmuller or phoenix contact? Thanks!

 

[iant]

probably just cheaper where they buy the SOLA from

 

[jtashaffer]

That's for the info. On the din rail brackets I still might have time to use it before it goes live. I could have just put all the relays in a role and had plenty of room but where I am at we are always adding things so I made the desicion to make it tight . As for the box size, It was as big as I could go with because of space. The old plc was stuck in side the vfd enclosure which look like a big red spaghetti mess. The old enclosure was made just for the drive .

 

[OkiePC]

Why that in the several panel we see Sola power supply? Why Sola? Better than Idec? or Weidmuller or phoenix contact? Thanks!

Sola is very popular here in the USA. My favorite now is PULS. I believe the PULS distributor told me that PULS was previously the maker of SOLA supplies which is what helped them get that reputation for reliability. They are less money too in all cases I had checked.

 

[The Plc Kid]

Sola is very popular here in the USA. My favorite now is PULS. I believe the PULS distributor told me that PULS was previously the maker of SOLA supplies which is what helped them get that reputation for reliability. They are less money too in all cases I had checked.

Paul what makes PULS your favorite? I have had them come in on a couple OEM machines and replaced them in less than 18 months. Maybe I just got a bad batch.

Just curious on others experiences with them.

 

[V0N_hydro]

hydro power plant line up

here are two intake control panels, substation control panel, plant master control panel, and two generator unit control panels. excitation cabinet open in the background. The top hats provide a nice place for spare cores to be coiled up out of the way.

the HMIs on the generator cells are factory talk ME and will talk direct to the unit-PLCs so they are independent of any computers and the other three are 17" factory talk SE clients so will display the exact plant HMI at 1280x1024 supplied by the HMI server. There is a rack mount pull out keyboard drawer on the plant master control panel. there is also a PC based display client in remote control rooms which will primarly be used.

SEL gear is my favourite to work with by far. The products are obviously exceptional quality and the documentation is excellent.

we wire all the ethernet ports on the switch out to SIEMON din mount ethernet ports so no field modifications require running cables to the door.

the little shelf under the ethernet switch is a nice place for media converters, firewalls, VOIP stuff, vpn gateways, POE injectors, etc that don't fit rack or DIN mount, and then an inverter is also on that door to provide battery-backed AC supply for those devices and PC monitors etc.

the 17 slot chassis *just* fit the width of the panel between the corner ducts so we are using the redundant power supply. Too bad the redundant supply only comes in 24V and not 125VDC.

I couldn't decide if we should pony up for the factory pre-wired removable terminal blocks or just buy a reel of 30 colour coded core cable. went for the pre-wired in the end because it was less hassle and there were no savings since we would have had 95% of the cable reel left over. Interesting the schneider M340 IO module cables are #24 and these AB ones are #18. the schneider ones are 1/3 the cost.

love those phoenix quatro TBs.

we use the green phoenix relay terminal bocks on the right for all the discrete outputs instead of buying relay PLC output cards. if any DO needs to be solid state you can plug in a 3A solid sate relay in to the relay TB.

 

[The Plc Kid]

here are two intake control panels, substation control panel, plant master control panel, and two generator unit control panels. excitation cabinet open in the background. The top hats provide a nice place for spare cores to be coiled up out of the way.

the HMIs on the generator cells are factory talk ME and will talk direct to the unit-PLCs so they are independent of any computers and the other three are 17" factory talk SE clients so will display the exact plant HMI at 1280x1024 supplied by the HMI server. There is a rack mount pull out keyboard drawer on the plant master control panel. there is also a PC based display client in remote control rooms which will primarly be used.

SEL gear is my favourite to work with by far. The products are obviously exceptional quality and the documentation is excellent.

we wire all the ethernet ports on the switch out to SIEMON din mount ethernet ports so no field modifications require running cables to the door.

the little shelf under the ethernet switch is a nice place for media converters, firewalls, VOIP stuff, vpn gateways, POE injectors, etc that don't fit rack or DIN mount, and then an inverter is also on that door to provide battery-backed AC supply for those devices and PC monitors etc.

the 17 slot chassis *just* fit the width of the panel between the corner ducts so we are using the redundant power supply. Too bad the redundant supply only comes in 24V and not 125VDC.

I couldn't decide if we should pony up for the factory pre-wired removable terminal blocks or just buy a reel of 30 colour coded core cable. went for the pre-wired in the end because it was less hassle and there were no savings since we would have had 95% of the cable reel left over. Interesting the schneider M340 IO module cables are #24 and these AB ones are #18. the schneider ones are 1/3 the cost.

love those phoenix quatro TBs.

we use the green phoenix relay terminal bocks on the right for all the discrete outputs instead of buying relay PLC output cards. if any DO needs to be solid state you can plug in a 3A solid sate relay in to the relay TB.

Really nice looking panel setup. I like it.

 

[geniusintraining]

Really nice looking panel setup. I like it.

Same here, very nice V0N_hydro

 

[Geospark]

V0N_hydro,

Yes, I agree, it's a very nicely done job. A lot of thought looks to have gone into it. However, a couple of things to note or advise on...

...Too bad the redundant supply only comes in 24V and not 125VDC...

I assume you are using the 1756-PB75R redundant power supply, which is 24VDC supplied? There is indeed a 120/240VAC 50/60Hz supplied option, the 1756-PA75R redundant power supply.

You can read the specs here on page 13...

"1756 ControlLogix Power Supplies Specifications" - 1756-td005_-en-e.pdf

...the 17 slot chassis *just* fit the width of the panel between the corner ducts ...

The minimum required spacing for ControlLogix chassis can be read here on page 5...

"1756 ControlLogix Chassis Specifications" - 1756-td006_-en-e.pdf

The standard power supply for the ControlLogix in your 2nd screenshot looks to be ok, as the required spacing for the power supply from the sides of the enclosure must be a minimum 10.2 cm, or 4 inches, and can include the wireway.

However, in your 3rd screenshot, even though you have used a chassis adapter to make it *just* fit, it is not of the required spacing for a chassis adapter. There is specific mention of this on page 5...

"When you mount a ControlLogix chassis with a redundant power supply and a chassis adapter module in an enclosure,
follow these spacing requirements.

The 10.2 (4.0) measurement to the side of the enclosure
can include the wireway only on the right side of the chassis."

This means you should have at least 10.2cm, or 4 inches, between the chassis adapter to the left, and the wireway, not the side of the enclosure.

The cable between the 1756-PSCA2 chassis adapter and the redundant power supply is completely inside the trunking. This cable is a "1756-CPR2 - Redundant power supply cable (Length = 0.9 1m [3 ft])". It is designated Catagory 3 wiring. You are instructed to follow the "Industrial Automation Wiring and Grounding Guidelines" - 1770-in041_-en-p.pdf to properly route your cabling, according to its designated Catagory, to avoid noise.

On page 2, the guideline defines Catagory 3 as...

"low-voltage dc power cables — provide backplane power to the system components"

On page 3, Table B gives general guidelines for routing different Catagory cables away from each other...

"Category 3 - Route conductors external to all raceways in the enclosure or in a raceway separate from any category-1 conductors with
the same spacing listed for category-2 conductors, where possible.

So, ideally, the 1756-PSCA2 cable should be outside the trunking. You have it inside, ok, but are there any Catagory 1 conductors with the Catagory 3 cable in the trunking? If so, are the routing guidelines for Catagory 2 satisfied i.e. 6 inches from Catagory 1 conductors? This is not likely in what looks like a 4 inch trunking?

Also, The 1756-CPR2 cable can have a maximum bend radius of 12.7cm, or 5 inches. Is your wireway 5 inches wide? If only 4 inches, then, as you have the chassis adapter tight against the wireway, the bend radius may be tighter than 5 inches.

The spacing requirements are "required".
The routing guidelines are "guidelines" only for noise immunity.

That brings me on to a very important point with regard to the above. The spacing requirements are important for heat dissipation. Normally, if there is not sufficient surface area, and a cool enough external air temperature, for heat dissipation through convection, then ventilation is used to assist the heat dissipation. I'm not saying you do not have any, but I don't see any sign of ventilation in your screenshots? You have a lot of heat sources in some of those enclosures. Regardless of whether you have tight chassis spacing or not, what in general is cooling these enclosures? Perhaps there is some form of ventilation that I cannot see? If so, then please feel free to correct me.

I'm not being picky here, your enclosures look fantastic, it's just if "something" turns to smoke down the road, then RA, or A.N.Other, will throw all this stuff at you, plus it's good practice either way.

I used to sub-contract to a panel builder years ago, and he sometimes lost bids on projects just because he wanted an extra enclosure added, or to use a larger one, rather than try stuffing things in where they really ought not to go. Some also decided that ventilation was a luxury. On a couple of occasions we went back to sort out some of "told you so" ones, finding they had to run with the doors open in the Summer, and 3PH cooling fans in front of them on the floor!

Very impressive, all the same VON_hydro

Regards,
George

 

[NetNathan]

Has anyone used the new Satie System for wiring your control panels?
It is a standoff system that removes the need for wiring ducts. It reduces panel size requirements by about 30% or more.
It was demonstrated to me yesterday.....looks pretty interesting, but a little bit of a learning curve. Satie will actually take your existing panel layout and specify necessary system components.

http://www.satie-system.com/electrical-control-panel-frame-service-department.php

 

[V0N_hydro]

Hi Geo, thanks for the comments.

There is indeed a 120/240VAC 50/60Hz supplied option, the 1756-PA75R redundant power supply.

I suppose we could have used the AC supply through the inverter, but the inverter has fans etc and is another point of failure so we prefer DC supplies. We have 125VDC battery bank and usually also 24VDC battery bank, in this case redundant 125-24VDC converters instead of 24VDC bb. If there was a 125V DC redundant supply definitely would have gone for it. Or does the 1756-PA75R also quietly take DC? That wasn't mentioned in the manual.


The corner duct includes an extra inch because of the back and sidepans so it is more like 5x5. the bend radius was...manageable. You are correct the cable and connector is in the wireduct, getting the DB25 connector on the port is a bit of a pain. I agree we're violating the requirements on spacing, and I think I missed that note about using the wireway only on the right side when using the redundant power supply adapter.

Ideally we would have done this project with two more cells on the plant floor at the generators but that was not what we were allowed to do, so I can identify with your panel builder sub. It can be difficult to get the real estate we want to avoid having stuffed and cramped panels.

Given everything that had to fit in those unit cells the choice was between two chassis or the 17 slot chassis with redundant power supply. With two chassis now half the IO is over ethernet instead of local which was more expensive and also complicates the programming and failure scenarios and also it took up more space that we didn't have, so the compromise with the power cable in the wire duct. The corner wire duct will be max 20% full so should provide decent air circulation still to the left hand side of the PLC.

You are correct there is no cooling in the enclosures. Sometimes we have air inlet vents on the door in the rack at the bottom and fans at the top but on this one the customer specified that there were to be no "dirt pumps". The panels are going to northern Canada, almost in Alaska, and the control room has a heat pump so the temp in there is controlled. So far heat hasn't been an issue for us so I admit we don't give it much consideration for this application.

Although there could be 120V AC in the same duct it would be voltage sensing inputs (no current) and they would be crossing paths perpendicularly and the redundant power supply cable is shielded. So hopefully noise induced on to the backplane power doesn't become an issue.


thanks again for your comments!

 

[MarkNightingale]

Has anyone used the new Satie System for wiring your control panels?

Nathan,

All of our Krones panels use this system.

It looks good and everything is tidy and neat, but trying to add anything can be a nightmare.

Cheers

Mark