Hardware Configuration Changes to Live Siemens System

[DeltaOP]

Hi all,

This is going to be a long post apologies. I'm also a complete beginner to the world of PLCs.

I'm currently working on my first ever project that involves integrating Ignition (software by Inductive automation) with an already established system controlled by a Siemens S7-1200 PLC. The architecture of the system is relatively simple, the S7-1200 PLC is the controller of a separate Siemens IO device and is also connected to two Siemens HMI panels (KTP1200 Basic). The system was set up by a third party company so we dont have access to the original project file, however there is no password protection on the PLC (as far as I know) and we have a TIA .15 project backup that I have been able to look at.

At this point in the project I need to do a couple of things to get tags in Ignition from the PLC:

1. Connect a local workstation with Ignition to the PLC
2. Upload the live program on the PLC to a new project in TIA Portal, enable the PUT/GET with remote partner configuration option, and then redownload the project to the PLC.

Since we dont have access to the original project file, I want to be absolutely certain that whatever I do is not going to break the system or destroy the program. These were a couple of things I'm trying to figure out before my next site visit:

• When connecting to the local workstation I will need to disconnect the ethernet cable between the PLC and one of the HMI panels to introduce a network switch that will allow for an extra output to go to the workstation. Will disconnecting the HMI momentarily to introduce these new components cause any long term issues in the HMI or PLC? And will a basic dumb switch and cat5/6 cables be fine for this?
• The original project was written using TIA v15. This version is no longer available but I have licensing for v17 and have the trial v15.1. Can I take an upload of the program using these TIA versions?
• PUT/GET needs to be enabled to allow Ignition to communicate with the PLC. This is a security configuration option on the PLC. If I change this option in the upload and then redownload to the PLC without making any changes to the program, will this overwrite/reset any live tag values or PLC memory or cause any other issues?

I know this is a pretty open ended question so any advice on any of the points would be appreciated!

 

[azadM]

1. YOU CAN DISCONNECT THE HMI WHILE SYSTEM IS STOPPED THERE WILL BE NO EFFECT ON ANYTHING AFTER YOU RECONNECT SYSTEM WILL WORK FINE.
2. NO AS FAR AS I KNOW YOU CANNOT UPLOAD A LOWER VERSION PLC USING HIGHER VERSION OF TIA YOU'LL NEED TIA15 AFTER UPLOAD YOU CAN UPGRADE THE PROGRAM TO 15.1 AND DOWNLOAD IT.
3. ENABLING THE PUT GET ACCESS TO PLC WONT AFFECT THE PROGRAM AT ALL.

 

[JesperMP]

When connecting to the local workstation I will need to disconnect the ethernet cable between the PLC and one of the HMI panels to introduce a network switch that will allow for an extra output to go to the workstation. Will disconnecting the HMI momentarily to introduce these new components cause any long term issues in the HMI or PLC?

There is the possibility (risk) that in the configuration of the IO Controller, the Profinet system is setup with topology. This means that the cabling must match the topology exactly. The cabling must go from specific port on specific device to specific port on specific device. Adding a switch in between can break this.
That being said, it is unlikely to be setup with topology. But better ask before you do anything.
edit: My bad, in my hurry I read that the S7-1200 was an I-Device. Since it is not, then the topology or no topology is in the project of the S7-1200.

And will a basic dumb switch and cat5/6 cables be fine for this?

The switch must support QoS.
Be sure to use screened Profinet cables for anything going outside the cabinet.

The original project was written using TIA v15. This version is no longer available but I have licensing for v17 and have the trial v15.1. Can I take an upload of the program using these TIA versions?

You can install TIA V15.1 in parallel with V17. The license for V17 will work with V15.1.
Not sure if you can upload a V15.1 directly to V17.
If you do manage to upload, if you work in V17 the project will have to be recompiled and downloaded anew.

PUT/GET needs to be enabled to allow Ignition to communicate with the PLC. This is a security configuration option on the PLC. If I change this option in the upload and then redownload to the PLC without making any changes to the program, will this overwrite/reset any live tag values or PLC memory or cause any other issues?

No.

But the previously mentioned migration from V15.1 to V17 will reset all actual values to the initial values.
You can use the snapshot function in V15.1, then copy snapshot to initial values. But since it will take some time for migrating to V17 and loading the new program, in the mean time the actual values can have changed. So you need to make an educated assessment if it is a problem and what to do.

 

[mk42]

• When connecting to the local workstation I will need to disconnect the ethernet cable between the PLC and one of the HMI panels to introduce a network switch that will allow for an extra output to go to the workstation. Will disconnecting the HMI momentarily to introduce these new components cause any long term issues in the HMI or PLC? And will a basic dumb switch and cat5/6 cables be fine for this?

It is probably OK to disconnect the HMI. It could potentially interrupt something like data logging, but i'm not sure if the Basic panels even support those.

• The original project was written using TIA v15. This version is no longer available but I have licensing for v17 and have the trial v15.1. Can I take an upload of the program using these TIA versions?

See this link for what version of Portal can upload from another. It's pretty specific; in general only the exact version works, which is a huge pain. I'm willing to bet that if you call tech support someone can send you the v15 installer, even if it isn't available for public download anymore.

SIOS

support.industry.siemens.com

Also, if it's a 1200F (safety PLC) it doesn't not support uploads for the safety program, which for practical purposes means you can't upload the full station if safety is active in a 1200.

• PUT/GET needs to be enabled to allow Ignition to communicate with the PLC. This is a security configuration option on the PLC. If I change this option in the upload and then redownload to the PLC without making any changes to the program, will this overwrite/reset any live tag values or PLC memory or cause any other issues?

Besides any project upgrade shenanigans, making a HW change to the PLC in general will cause the PLC to go to STOP for the DL. This will reset in all non-retentive data getting reset to the start values. Definitely look into the Snapshot function Jesper suggested. It is the best solution, but doesn't address all scenarios.

 

[DeltaOP]

There is the possibility (risk) that in the configuration of the IO Controller, the Profinet system is setup with topology. This means that the cabling must match the topology exactly. The cabling must go from specific port on specific device to specific port on specific device. Adding a switch in between can break this.
That being said, it is unlikely to be setup with topology. But better ask before you do anything.
edit: My bad, in my hurry I read that the S7-1200 was an I-Device. Since it is not, then the topology or no topology is in the project of the S7-1200.

In the topology view of the project back-up there is no links between devices so I don't think that will be an issue for this project. Interesting feature though

But the previously mentioned migration from V15.1 to V17 will reset all actual values to the initial values.
You can use the snapshot function in V15.1, then copy snapshot to initial values. But since it will take some time for migrating to V17 and loading the new program, in the mean time the actual values can have changed. So you need to make an educated assessment if it is a problem and what to do.

If I manage to get a download from the controller I won't bother migrating between versions, I only need to make that one hardware change in an offline version and redownload. The snapshot feature sounds like it could be useful if anything goes wrong. The system is for a brewery that operates mostly on batch work, so I was hoping to do these changes at a time when the facility isn't in use and I can stop the PLC without interrupting any process. Could use the snapshot feature at this time as well when tag values would be mostly static.

 

[DeltaOP]

It is probably OK to disconnect the HMI. It could potentially interrupt something like data logging, but i'm not sure if the Basic panels even support those.

They dont have any data collection for the process so I dont think this will be an issue. Would I have to stop the PLC before disconnecting the HMI or can I do this while the system is running?

See this link for what version of Portal can upload from another. It's pretty specific; in general only the exact version works, which is a huge pain. I'm willing to bet that if you call tech support someone can send you the v15 installer, even if it isn't available for public download anymore.

SIOS

support.industry.siemens.com

Cheers for the link, I knew that Siemens was very specific about TIA version when it came to taking uploads but I thought v15.1 may be able to take uploads for v15 since the latter is no longer available. This link unfortunately states otherwise. Will try an contact Siemens to see if they can send an installer as you suggested.

Also, if it's a 1200F (safety PLC) it doesn't not support uploads for the safety program, which for practical purposes means you can't upload the full station if safety is active in a 1200.

Pretty sure its not one of these. Pretty sure the project file I have is an old back-up and the controller model looks standard.

Besides any project upgrade shenanigans, making a HW change to the PLC in general will cause the PLC to go to STOP for the DL. This will reset in all non-retentive data getting reset to the start values. Definitely look into the Snapshot function Jesper suggested. It is the best solution, but doesn't address all scenarios.

We dont have much knowledge on how the program works (since its from a third party chinese company) so that reset to start values could be bad. Not sure how familiar you are with Siemens but I'm assuming that if this re-initialisation was going to occur it would come up in the warning screen that you have to confirm before downloading?

I've done some testing using PLCSIM and TIA projects with tags but no program (I cant simulate the project backup as some know-how protected blocks dont have the support with PLCSIM flag checked). With these test project files, only changing the PUT/GET option between the offline and online versions does not overwrite tag values when redownloading to the PLC. I wasnt sure if this would be the case when the PLC had an actual program installed but it seemed like if the software for the offline and online versions were the same then a download of the offline version would not overwrite any software.

 

[DeltaOP]

With these test project files, only changing the PUT/GET option between the offline and online versions does not overwrite tag values when redownloading to the PLC.

My bad, I see what you mean, if the tag is set to retentive it wont change but will otherwise.

 

[mk42]

My bad, I see what you mean, if the tag is set to retentive it wont change but will otherwise.

Exactly. Even if it isn't downloading to the DB to modify it, the STOP -> RUN transition will still initialize most of the system. If the machine builder did it smart, everything has useful default values, and things that need to be retentive will be, but...... "if the machine builder did it smart" can be a big ask sometimes.

 

[DeltaOP]

Appreciate the help!

Managed to get a TIA Portal v15 instance from a coworker so only issue now is figuring out whether or not reinitialize = bad. I would like to think that a program reboot wouldn't bring the facility to its knees, but like you said, I might be asking too much.

 

[Lare]

Appreciate the help!

Managed to get a TIA Portal v15 instance from a coworker so only issue now is figuring out whether or not reinitialize = bad. I would like to think that a program reboot wouldn't bring the facility to its knees, but like you said, I might be asking too much.

Have you thinked that it is maybe wise to buy new 1200 PLC, then program it and copy then all data values from still working old one to new. Then change new PLC to cabinet.

 

[mk42]

Appreciate the help!

Managed to get a TIA Portal v15 instance from a coworker so only issue now is figuring out whether or not reinitialize = bad. I would like to think that a program reboot wouldn't bring the facility to its knees, but like you said, I might be asking too much.

The facility needs to accept that this change they are asking for will require at least SOME downtime. Your goal is to minimize it, but there's nothing you can do to make it go away entirely.