IEC Question

[testsubject]

I know this is a PLC forum but there are many people from around the world that might be able to help me.
I have an aspect question (IEC).

I am familiar with 81346 but I did not know how to structure this.
I have several machines that share an enclosure, and I am trying to determine how to set up the aspects so it works correctly.

I am trying to set up each machine and enclosure as its own function, but I want all components to be mounted on the Panel of the enclosure.

=S0: Enclosure
=S1: Machine 1
=S2: Machine 2
=S3: Machine 3

=S0+PN1: Panel in S0

The components in each machine are the same: for example
=S1-VFD1, =S2-VFD1, =S3-VFD1.

How do I set up each component from =S1, =S2, =S3 so it is shown mounted on =S0+PN1 and still maintain the =S#-VFD1 tagging on the panel?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[JesperMP]

An enclosure would rather be a location than a function.

Functions is more open-ended what can be a function. As you describe it, each machine would be a function, but a single machine to be just one function seems to be too coarse.
You can divide into subfunctions.

So if the machines are =S0, =S1 etc, subfunctions could be for example =.D1 for AC power, =.D2 for DC power, =.F1 for safety, =.G1 for drive axis 1, =.G2 for drive axis 2 etc. The enclosures are +CC1, +CC2 etc.

Then some examples:
=S0.D1+CC1-FC1 : 1st machines AC power, circuit breaker in control cabinet 1.
=S1.F1+CC2-XA1 : 2nd machine safety terminal strip in cabinet 2
=S2.G2+CC1-T1 : 3rd machine drive axis 2 VFD in cabinet 1.

A tip: Select the functions in such a way that when pages are ordered alphatbetically by the functions, you can easily find the function you are looking for.

On the outside of each cabinet section you can have a large label, i.e. +CC1.
That makes it implied that everything inside has that location.
The components inside can then omit the "+" location identifier.
So you can label a component with the shorter text, i.e. =S0.D1-FC1"

 

[LadderLogic]

We use the higher-level function to identify an assembly or a station on the machine. Thus a servodrive that belongs to station 1 and is installed on the main panel, would have prefix =ST1+PNL.

This way the components can be grouped either by the mounting location so the list of parts to be installed on the given panel can be generated. Or they can be grouped by the assembly or by the station to create the BOM for purchasing and cost tracking.

I guess there might be other ways to handle this; the system is quite flexible.

 

[testsubject]

JesperMP and LadderLogic,

Thanks for the responses. I guess I am overthinking it. I thought that the Locations were grouped by the Function.

For example, =S1+CC1 and =S2+CC1. I thought that the +CC1 in these two examples are different locations because they are "under" =S1 and =S2, not the same location.

Am I wrong?

 

[JesperMP]

In IEC 81346 the "=" sign is for the function, the "+" is for the location, the "-" is the component.

I thought that the Locations were grouped by the Function.

It depends entirely by the project.

You can have the same function in multiple locations.
i.e. =S1+CC1-FC1 and =S1+CC2-FC2

You can have the multiple functions in the same locations.
i.e. =S1+CC1-FC1 and =S2+CC1-FC2

In your case with several machines that is controlled by the same control cabinet, I would let the top level function be the machines (=Sn), and add subfunction levels below the top level to distinguish additional functions (=Sn.xx).

The location can also be subdivided, for example cabinet +CC1 can have sections +CC1.1, +CC1.2, +CC1.3 etc.
On each section have a label with the "+CC1.1", "+CC1.2" etc.
You decide how many sublevels to have. My advice is to try and limit to 2 levels.

 

[testsubject]

Jesper,
As a follow up, can the same product be used for different functions?

Like =S01.D1-F1 and =S02.D1-F1 would two different fuses.... (This is still thinking about creating templates for similar machines that are multiples in a line.)

So, it sounds like Functions and Locations can work independently of each other. Is this correct?

Again, thanks for your insight!

 

[AutomaticInvest_4]

testsubject,

what is with that aggressive photo in your profile ?

 

[JesperMP]

As a follow up, can the same product be used for different functions?

Yes. IEC81346 recommends that you start from 1 and increment 2, 3, 4 etc. We do allow for gaps in the count if it suits us.

Like =S01.D1-F1 and =S02.D1-F1 would two different fuses.... (This is still thinking about creating templates for similar machines that are multiples in a line.)

Yes.

So, it sounds like Functions and Locations can work independently of each other. Is this correct?

Yes.
I do think that locations are of secondary importance. Even though IEC81346 allows that you distinguish by the location, I find that everything becomes easier if you always have unique components within the same function.
edit: In some cases, especially for cables and terminals, the location may be what distinguish the difference. If for the same function a cable goes from terminal strip to another terminal strip in a new location and yet another cable, it is sufficient that the location changes. Like the cable name -WA1 is the same below, but the location changes from +CC1 to +FA.

Whenever you start a new function, start the components from "1".
I.e. =S01.D1-F1 is the 1st, =S01.D1-F2 is the 2nd and so forth.

We have a policy of grouping everything within groups with the same component number.
So within the 1st motor starter we have
=S01.D1+CC1-FC1 circuit breaker
=S01.D1+CC1-QA1 contactor
=S01.D1+CC1-XA1 terminals
=S01.D1+CC1-WA1 cable (gets the location from its 'starting point').
=S01.D1+FA-QM1 local repair switch box in the field
=S01.D1+FA-WA1 local cable from repair switch to motor
=S01.D1+FA-M1 motor in the field

The next motor starter all the components are the same, except -FC1 becomes -FC2 etc.

edit: If the same function has multiple components of the same type, you may have to distinguish by adding a further identifier to the component name. I.e. -QM1A and -QM1B.

I repeat the tip of carefully arranging the functions so that when you print out the schematics with the functions in alphabetical order, it all sorts in a familiar manner.
Your electricians will b***h about not having the familiar page and path naming convention for components (i.e. "19K5" on page 19 path 5). If you can show them how they can easily browse to anything by the function they will accept it much faster. The most stubborn ones will never get it though.

 

[testsubject]

testsubject,

what is with that aggressive photo in your profile ?

HAHA!
I don't remember what game it came from but I was pretty heavy into CRPGs at the time and I am sure this was probably the mage of the group.

 

[AutomaticInvest_4]

OK, so games

 

[testsubject]

Jesper,

Thanks for confirming all that. This is what I was thinking of implementing to make it easier to create lines.

I repeat the tip of carefully arranging the functions so that when you print out the schematics with the functions in alphabetical order, it all sorts in a familiar manner.
Your electricians will b***h about not having the familiar page and path naming convention for components (i.e. "19K5" on page 19 path 5). If you can show them how they can easily browse to anything by the function they will accept it much faster. The most stubborn ones will never get it though.

HAHA. My original structure did provide for a pseudo functional structure:
4 Characters in the sheet number: ABCD
A: What is it? 1=Power, 2=Drives, 3=Safety, etc
BC: What Station it is. 01, 02, 03, etc
D: Sequential sheet number: 0-9 and A-Z (I did this to get more than 10 sheets in a group.

So the first VFD of station 1 is 2011VFD1.

This is similar enough to the Function coding that it should not be a big stretch to accept the change. (The tags just get bigger)

The tougher part is accepting that wire numbers as they are familiar with are going to change to CompTag.Terminal designations from signal potential designations.

 

[JesperMP]

The tags just get bigger

Try to keep the names short. Complex tag coding systems brings no advantage.
2-3 characters at the most for the function, location and component part.
And you can omit the implied part inside the cabinets and in the schematics.
So you dont have to write =S01.SD1+CC1-FC1. Since =S01 and +CC1 can be implied, you will only have =.SD1-FC1.
You can look in IEC 81346 part 2 for the letter code standards.
For functions and locations, define your own (!). If you use the standard for the functions, you will find that you cannot sort your schematics alphabetically according to the function which makes things hard to find. This is not against the standard, you merely have to document it in one of the 1st pages of the schematics.
For components, follow the standard but decide if you want 1 letters, 2 letters or 3 letters. May advice is to avoid the 3 letters. It gets overly difficult to select exactly the correct letter code according to the standard.
Personally I would be happy with just 1 letter (-B for a prox for example) but my colleagues insist on 2 letters (-BG for the prox).

 

[testsubject]

Thanks for those suggestions. I do try to keep them short.

I used to work for a company that did use IEC but they were all stand-alone machines, and I did use locations but not functions in all the drawings with the sheet numbering I referenced earlier.

I will admit I also like 2 letter product designations.

 

[testsubject]

Jesper,

We have been communicating mostly about schematic drawings but where do assembly drawings fall into? Do we create an Assembly sub-Function?

I typically place all the assembly drawings at the end of the schematics after all the parts have been "introduced" earlier in the schematics. Using Station function for sorting would have these shuffled throughout the drawing package. (Assuming there is a function for representing them.)

How do you handle this?

 

[JesperMP]

We use EPLAN, and this software organizes the documentation to yet another level denoted with '&' (which is not part of IEC81346, it is an EPLAN standard). So schematics are usually in a chapter called &ELM and assembly drawings are under &LAY (for layout).
Some times we put explanatory illustrations under &MAO for Machine Overview.
edit: So these 'chapters' are the first level of sorting. Within a chapter we then sort according to function.

Being an assembly drawing is not a function in itself, from the view of the machine.
The assembly drawings usually only have the top level functions, i.e. =S01, not S01.D1
The assembly drwaings can have a location associated to them. +CC1 then is the assembly for the control cabinet.
'can have', not 'must have'. Sometimes you have several locations near each other, and you show them on the same assembly drawing. You then surround these locations with a reference box.