Industrial Bluetooth / Wireless Communication

[talldude42]

Where does the industry stand with bluetooth or wireless communications?
Is it reliable for data collection to a server?

Our production area is roughly 11,000 sqft with a nice low ceiling of only 15ft, 220V and 480V buss lines running the length of the production area in multiple spots, 34 machines with 22 hydraulic pump motors (20-30hp).

Plan was to run network cable to all the machines, but it would be amazing if i didnt have to do that lol. But also can deal with loss of communication to the server from the wireless not working properly.

Any experience out there?

 

[thingstodo]

Where does the industry stand with bluetooth or wireless communications?
Is it reliable for data collection to a server?

Our production area is roughly 11,000 sqft with a nice low ceiling of only 15ft, 220V and 480V buss lines running the length of the production area in multiple spots, 34 machines with 22 hydraulic pump motors (20-30hp).

Plan was to run network cable to all the machines, but it would be amazing if i didnt have to do that lol. But also can deal with loss of communication to the server from the wireless not working properly.

Any experience out there?

We use a phoenix wireless system to send status from a moving tripper to a base station, ranging from 10 - 800 feet. There are 5 small (<5 HP) VFD driven motors on the tripper.


The phoenix system runs a version of wifi, and we have not had any issues. It has been in service for about a year so if we run out of hard-wired cabling for control, we MIGHT use the wifi for control. But we are a bit paranoid!


There is a festoon system on the tripper that carries power, 3 phase motor cables, and 2 control cables. We could not find fiber rated for festoon ... 800 feet is longer than cat5 copper will go. All control and most status was hard-wired in the control cable, but we there are additional status (motor currents, individual status for multiple hard-wired stops to aid in trouble-shooting, analog level detection below the tripper) going over the radio system


Personally I would hard-wire what you need to keep the place running, and try out wireless for the data collection that is nice-to-have ... details on vibration, bearing temperatures, chattering switch status, etc.


Putting in a wireless system that large will take some time, and you may need to add wifi points to get good signal around big metal machines. When you add some equipment later, it may break what you have running until you figure out where to add a wifi point. Wifi signal reception, network design, and actual signal received ... is still Voodoo in my mind. Some of it works perfectly, some of it has gremlins.



A good start is to buy GOOD equipment that is WELL SUPPORTED by a local company that can help you when it goes wrong. Phoenix has been responsive to issues, as has EECOL electric, our local distributor. We got a demo system for proof of concept, Phoenix and EECOL assisted with design, initial setup, etc. They saved me many hours of frustration.


While the system has proven reliable. I would still be cautious deploying a system the size that you are talking about.

 

[Ken Moore]

I would plan out the network with switches in the most logical places, plan on leaving a few ports on each switch for future connections. Then run fiber between switches and back to collection server. You can run the fiber in the ceiling with the AC voltages and not worry about noise.

I only use wireless when there is one or two points, and/or a long distance to pull cable.

 

[goghie]

You can concentrate signals to several nearby switches and than use fiber optic cables to connect it to main switch. Fiber optic cables are very economical over long distances, highly reliable and take very small footprint.
If you want to use wireless and don't have problems with temporarily loss of communication than you can use MQTT or similar solutions, but it will cost a lot to install all gateways need.
Bluetooth is just not good.

 

[mk42]

Where does the industry stand with bluetooth or wireless communications?
Is it reliable for data collection to a server?

Our production area is roughly 11,000 sqft with a nice low ceiling of only 15ft, 220V and 480V buss lines running the length of the production area in multiple spots, 34 machines with 22 hydraulic pump motors (20-30hp).

Plan was to run network cable to all the machines, but it would be amazing if i didnt have to do that lol. But also can deal with loss of communication to the server from the wireless not working properly.

Any experience out there?

In my experience, wireless should only be used when wired isn't an option, which usually means stuff is moving: AGVs, turntables, carrier systems, gantries, etc. Wireless is almost always more complicated, way more work (planning and commissioning) to get reliable, and usually doesn't provide cost savings.


That said, I've seen systems with Siemens Wifi used for Profinet IO comms (even safety) so it CAN be very reliable, with proper planning. For just supervisory level access, it should be easy enough.



I've seen bluetooth for IIoT type applications, for connecting sensors to a nearby collector unit, but never for general ethernet data.


You definitely want to get a company to do it for you and be responsible for it, unless you are REALLY optimistic about the skills & experience of you/your team/your plant IT.

 

[mylespetro]

The only place I've seen Bluetooth in an industrial setting (off the top of my head anyways) was for remote configuration of Vega devices. I didn't actually do it but my boss mentioned trying it out and it worked really well for him.

 

[chud]

First of all what i/o are you planning on using? are they sensors or pushbuttons inputs? Are there any outputs?

 

[talldude42]

It would be used for the data collection purposes. To send machine data (cycle counts, temps, times, etc) to the server for storage and viewing. Allowing management to take valuable data from the machines to do absolutely nothing with, solve zero issues and make no improvements. Because ya that takes effort, thought, and a back bone to tell someone they need to change what they are doing... but I digress.

Other than just for data collection the only other thing i can think of that would really be used for would be a machine call board in the area where the process techs hang out. So if an operator needs assistance the can press a button on the press and that number would light up on the board.

I can see bluetooth sensors, switches and outputs being useful in another area of the shop but I am so far off from being able to automate that department its not even worth discussing at this point.

 

[janner_10]

It would be used for the data collection purposes. To send machine data (cycle counts, temps, times, etc) to the server for storage and viewing. Allowing management to take valuable data from the machines to do absolutely nothing with, solve zero issues and make no improvements. Because ya that takes effort, thought, and a back bone to tell someone they need to change what they are doing... but I digress.

In that case, present the most expensive options to them and it will be swept under the carpet soon enough.

 

[NetNathan]

I use these... really nice and will transmit most any protocol. "Bolt" by Anybus.
https://www.anybus.com/products/wireless-solutions/wireless-bolt/anybus-wireless-bolt-iot?ordercode=AWB1000

 

[talldude42]

I use these... really nice and will transmit most any protocol. "Bolt" by Anybus.
https://www.anybus.com/products/wireless-solutions/wireless-bolt/anybus-wireless-bolt-iot?ordercode=AWB1000

Turns out we have a local distributor for the Anybus so Im going to have them come out and do an evaluation and go from there.

 

[johnd_125]

In my experience, wireless should only be used when wired isn't an option, which usually means stuff is moving: AGVs, turntables, carrier systems, gantries, etc.

My feelings exactly, with limited experience. I've installed 2 wireless systems over a period of several years. Wireless is taking on another headache so make sure you don't have a choice.

The first system I did was an N-Tron wireless radio setup where a rotating turntable was involved. Its been in operation about 8 years and there was a period where it did not seem to work no matter what and then it started working and been good, since.

The 2nd was much more recent using an Anybus Bolt and Bridge. We kept getting timeouts on packets. I increased the RPI as much as I dared and while they still get errors, it doesn't seem to affect operation. We tried the WiFi and then the Bluetooth and back to WiFi, 5Ghz and 2.4Ghz.

I got the mfr. techs involved in both the above to get it as good as possible but neither are as reliable as a cable.

WiFi devices in the area have a huge affect so when somebody adds a printer in a nearby office and decides on WiFi instead of running a cable, it can affect your equipment if they are on the same channel. Not good. Get a wifi analyzer on your phone to find the most free channels.

Having said that I am about to use the Anybus Bolt setup to log some temperatures for furnace calibration where a technician rolls his cart around and connects multiple thermocouple points up to a box for logging back to a computer in the area. My feeling was I'd save him having to roll out an ethernet cable each time he set up. A blip on the communications shouldn't be a problem with slow changing temperatures.

 

[Bit_Bucket_07]

Nobody has come right out and said it yet, but you won't likely find any industrial implementations of Bluetooth. It's slow, insecure and limited in range to no more than 30 feet.

What you're looking for is WiFi wireless. And most of the responses you've received pertain to WiFi -- not Bluetooth.

 

[Firejo]

Wireless can be made to be reliable and useful, but you should have someone who really knows what they are doing and what all the “Do’s and Don’ts” are. You can’t treat it like just another Ethernet network. I would recommend that it be a stand-alone network and that it be setup to play nice with whatever other wireless networks might exist (usually WiFi for all the laptops, smart devices, etc…). If you decide to use WiFi, find a system that supports Access Point/Repeaters/Station Adaptor modes. This will allow you to put multiple Access Points (Repeaters) in areas that provide the best coverage of all the equipment and have the same device connect your equipment to the network (I.E one model for all needs).

 

[einnh]

We use AnyBus wireless bolts on some of our vision systems (so we don't have to deal with wire flex on x-code). Works flawlessly for us.