Motion Controller Brand Discussion

[KonstantinKolev]

Hi,

I have a Master Thesis to write and my topic is Vertical Bag Packing Machine with continuous cycle. I am almost done with the mechanical design and I am starting to think about the electronics and control now.

As an example for my project I reference to this machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqY90Wv1peQ&t=22s

Let me briefly explain what I found out about the motion of these machine kinds. The most important is that the motors that pull the foil have to be masters for the motor moving the gantry and the lower arm that holds the bag. Therefore the gantry motor and the lower arm motor have to synchronized to the foil motor.

I can think of one function that can achieve this - it is CAM function. Creating a CAM table with some points of the master motor and the corresponding ones on the slaves.

Some words regrading the controller that will do all the logic. My first thought was SIEMENS SIMOTION family but due to the long delivery time I kind of think to stick to another brand like DELTA, LS Electric, FATEK or VECTOR(Chinese one).

Another thing is that I tend to choose a PLC based motion controller since the PC based motion controller have quite more many resources which I do not need and also are quite costly.

My questions are:

1. Am I on the right track about using CAM, or perhaps there is another, easier and simpler method?

2. Now regarding the controller, do I really need a motion controller for this task or a normal PLC with capabilities of controlling couple of motors will do? Which brand of the above mentioned would you suggest?

Best Regards
Konstantin Kolev

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

My questions are:

1. Am I on the right track about using CAM, or perhaps there is another, easier and simpler method?

A CAM would be the most straight forward.

2. Now regarding the controller, do I really need a motion controller for this task or a normal PLC with capabilities of controlling couple of motors will do? Which brand of the above mentioned would you suggest?

I would use a motion controlled because you have multiple axes to control. Also, motion controllers do this sort of thing all the time so the software tools will be better for the most part. Debugging will be easier with a motion controller.

Another thing to consider is if the packages are always the same size. If they must change, how fast can the package size be changed? If you get a good motion controller, you can change the cam profiles on-the-fly.

This should be easy.

 

[KonstantinKolev]

A CAM would be the most straight forward.

What other solutions could be used here?

I would use a motion controlled because you have multiple axes to control. Also, motion controllers do this sort of thing all the time so the software tools will be better for the most part. Debugging will be easier with a motion controller.

Another thing to consider is if the packages are always the same size. If they must change, how fast can the package size be changed? If you get a good motion controller, you can change the cam profiles on-the-fly.
This should be easy.

Could you say something about the brands I suggested above?

 

[ndzied1]

You might find this article interesting

https://dc-us.resource.bosch.com/me..._papers/flex_profile/rexroth-flex-profile.pdf

 

[JRW]

Hi,

I have a Master Thesis to write and my topic is Vertical Bag Packing Machine with continuous cycle. I am almost done with the mechanical design and I am starting to think about the electronics and control now.

As an example for my project I reference to this machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqY90Wv1peQ&t=22s

Let me briefly explain what I found out about the motion of these machine kinds. The most important is that the motors that pull the foil have to be masters for the motor moving the gantry and the lower arm that holds the bag. Therefore the gantry motor and the lower arm motor have to synchronized to the foil motor.

I can think of one function that can achieve this - it is CAM function. Creating a CAM table with some points of the master motor and the corresponding ones on the slaves.

Some words regrading the controller that will do all the logic. My first thought was SIEMENS SIMOTION family but due to the long delivery time I kind of think to stick to another brand like DELTA, LS Electric, FATEK or VECTOR(Chinese one).

Another thing is that I tend to choose a PLC based motion controller since the PC based motion controller have quite more many resources which I do not need and also are quite costly.

My questions are:

1. Am I on the right track about using CAM, or perhaps there is another, easier and simpler method?

2. Now regarding the controller, do I really need a motion controller for this task or a normal PLC with capabilities of controlling couple of motors will do? Which brand of the above mentioned would you suggest?

Best Regards
Konstantin Kolev

Have you looked at Siemens 1500T instead of Simotion?
You might get a better delivery

What drives are you using?

I don’t know anything about the other brands you mention

That video looks like simple gear-in absolute functionality
(Starts a gear in at the print mark in the plastic)

 

[busarider29]

Due to ease of application (looks straight forward), and for cost savings, I would consider the following:

Hardware:
CX9020.
Cheapest unit they have, full motion capable. New is ~$1000, but I just bought a used one last week on Ebay for $375. Had the PLC runtime license already on it too.

EDIT: Correction, the CX9020 is not full motion capable, but has limited motions capabilities. Beckhoff support tells me CX51xx or above is what you would require for full motion controller and TC NC Camming.

Software modules:
TwinCAT 3 NC Camming
Not sure on cost, but probably just a couple hundred $USD for use on CX51xx.

Supplemental software tool (optional)
TwinCAT 3 Cam Design Tool
Use this to easily design the cam profile and then download to the PLC

Lastly, I would opt for EtherCAT capable drives.

 

[LadderLogic]

Due to ease of application (looks straight forward), and for cost savings, I would consider the following:

Hardware:
CX9020.
Cheapest unit they have, full motion capable. New is ~$1000, but I just bought a used one last week on Ebay for $375. Had the PLC runtime license already on it too.

I am not sure if Beckhoff NC Camming package can run on a CX9020. I think it requires a higher-performance level controller.

I, on my end, would suggest a Yaskawa MP3000 series controller with Mechatrolink servodrives but this is probably a pretty rare beast.

 

[JRW]

Have you looked at Siemens 1500T instead of Simotion?
You might get a better delivery

What drives are you using?

I don’t know anything about the other brands you mention

That video looks like simple gear-in absolute functionality
(Starts a gear in at the print mark in the plastic)

1500T example



https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/904/109770904/att_1083509/v1/LFFS_SIMATIC_V1_0_en.pdf

 

[busarider29]

I am not sure if Beckhoff NC Camming package can run on a CX9020. I think it requires a higher-performance level controller.

Correct. I edited my post. Thanks.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

What other solutions could be used here?

Nothing else really makes sense. The application is too simple so use a simple tool.


The only option I can think of is what are the cams geared to. The simplest option is to gear all the axes as a function of time. The problem is that speeding up or slowing down the machine will not be possible without making new cams for all the axes that account for the time difference.


A more flexible way is to gear all the axes to the motor that is moving the foil, the packaging material. You do this by using the foil position as an index into the slave's cam table. This way the foil motor can speed up or slow down and all the other axes will speed up or slow down with it.


All the well known brands should be able to use both options. The first option is easy to implement. The second option requires is trickier because the slave axes must derive their feed forward values from the master or foil motor. Some motion controllers simply gear to a position. In this case the slave motors will have following errors. Better motion controllers will gear as a function of the master's position, velocity and acceleration. This is much more accurate.
I am using the word gear but obviously a cam allows for variable gear ratios.

 

[sparky66]

Yaskawa MP3300iec is a motion-centric PLC type controller that I know does this exact application.

 

[LadderLogic]

Yaskawa MP3300iec is a motion-centric PLC type controller that I know does this exact application.

Yes, although I personally consider their implementation of IEC standard a disaster.

 

[sparky66]

Yes, although I personally consider their implementation of IEC standard a disaster.

In what way?

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Another thing to think about. Cams are the way to go but not all motion controller have good camming software. A cam is basically what mathematicians call a cubic spline. The software this is well known. However, the typical cubic spline does not allow the setting of BOTH the velocity and acceleration to 0 at the start and end point of the spine.
Also, in some cases it is not optimal to slow down to a stop between cycles. The cam software should be able to make cyclic splines where the end of one a splines joins nicely with the beginning.

 

[KonstantinKolev]

Thank you all for the quick and accurate response.
I started researching about the option you suggested.

We have not decided yet on what drive we will use since we would like the motion controller and the drives to be bought from the same manufacturer.

One interesting fact that I have found is that DELTA Electronics offer servo drives with integrated CAM function. This could exclude the motion controller from the configuration but I am still not completely sure.

The drives from series A2 and A3 support this function. I suggest you check DELTA Electronics, they offer pretty wide variety of products.

Best Regards
Konstantin Kolev