Old Programs - New Owner

[shooter]

Your employer will get a new customer, so they will not complain.

The new company will have bought only the hardware, (when buying a new machine with a PLC you will not get the sogtware with it, only a manual)
so with an old machine and the old company is bankrupt nobody has any rights anymore even patents do loose their rights if not paid.

So contact the mill and your new company and try to sort it out.
Do not tell you have everything, just that you can give it a good try as you have experience in the mill. Backups are not very reliable and will have problems when starting up.

 

[adel1961]

these programs belongs to them and only then , so you have to be honest , just burn them on a cd with tag on each and mail it to them , for FREE

 

[daba]

There are 3 choices as I see it...

1. Do nothing, don't supply these programs, gain nothing, destroy them and you come out of this unscathed.

2. Send them the programs for free, not even a meal for you and wifey, and don't tell your current employer. Hopefully nothing more will be said, and you'll be a free man,

3. Let them have the programs at a cost, which makes you gaining from holding on to intellectual property you had no rights to.

Your current employer does not need to know about number 1, but you may be breaking the terms and conditions of your employment for 2 and 3, it is up to your conscience, and the desire to stay with your current employer.

Believe me, whenever there is some sh 1 t anywhere near a fan, it is amazing how often the two come together.

Now here's a thought - you could offer to go and work for the company that now owns the machines. As soon as you sever links with your current company, the information you hold becomes more valuable, and less contentious.

Bottom line - if they can categorically prove they have the rights to this software (seek advice) then you have no choice but to give it to them, even though you shouldn't have copies. You asked what I would do, No.2

 

[wimpiesplc]

Ask your current employer if that's ok. They will most likely say yes. If they say no, then ask your employer to provide you with a letter saying that they view you providing the software as a disciplinary offence.

I'd rather have a written letter saying they're okay with it. only you know the guy said "yes". what happens when the company changes it's mind later on?
When he says "no" you have no use for a letter. you already know you shouldn't do it.

 

[bce123]

Quote:

Ask your current employer if that's ok. They will most likely say yes. If they say no, then ask your employer to provide you with a letter saying that they view you providing the software as a disciplinary offence.

I'd rather have a written letter saying they're okay with it. only you know the guy said "yes". what happens when the company changes it's mind later on?
When he says "no" you have no use for a letter. you already know you shouldn't do it.

this would most likley lead to more stuff being moved closer to the fan!!

 

[Lancie1]

you guys are getting way to conplicated for something so simple. these were his backups. the other company lost them that's there fault. sell them to a contractor let him deal with the rest.

PLC Guru, your idea of the law could get you locked up. Back-ups, smack-ups, originals, none of that matters in determining who legally owns these programs. They are owned by the entity that paid to have them done (or its heir). Possession of an object does not count toward legal ownership, except in some cases of real estate (that has been taken by adverse possession).

If possession did count, then all thieves would be home-free and could sell their booty on the open market, instead of having to sell it illegally to a fence. Trying to sell these programs would be the same as asking some authority to come and make trouble for you, maybe threaten you with arrest, or maybe haul you into court.

The best bet is to find out who owns them and return them as anonomously as possible.

 

[Lancie1]

but you may be breaking the terms and conditions of your employment for 2 and 3,

I have never heard of any law that gives a current employer any rights to work done for a previous employer. If that were the case, white-collar employees could never work for more than one employer during their entire career (otherwise the new company would own everything that they ever produced). Patents developed while working for an old employer would be owned by the new employer.

Now there are non-compete agreements that some companies have their employees sign, but this is not a question of competition. Illegal competition requires a current employee to do NOW some type of current on-going work for a competitor. This "work" in question was done in the past, so is not in the category of current work that could be in competition with the new employer. Giving the old company these copies is only returning old lost property to its rightful owner.

No non-compete clause in existence could legally exclude or prevent that act.

 

[matthew1]

You also need to check your new company's Ethics policy. If they are big into proper Ethics then they will fire you for selling the programs if you can not prove ownership of them. However if they are Strict on ethics then they may not fire you for sending the programs to the new owners because ethically it is the correct thing to do if they prove ownership. That could protect you from a no compete clause. Before everyone rips this one up there are a few companys that still have ethics policy and follow it. Thats why I changed jobs 6 months ago. Just my two cents.

 

[PLC GURU]

Im not saying he "owns" the programs. I have seen it before where one company bought or acquired another, everything was running fine (except they neglected to back up their programs and change there batteries) and one day some sort of power issue occurs and they loose a bunch of programs. either 'a' they get someone in to rewrite or 'b' they contact someone from the previous company in the know to bail them out. Lucky for them they found out the old maint guy kept an old backup and they can get back up running quickly. He should be compensated for his time to fix them, not his time developing 10 years ago. If everyone were reasonable and dropped the lawyer garbage the world would be a better place. Although there may be a potential issue with his current employer thats why he needs to phone a friend. he is not criminal, just smarter than your average bear.

 

[Lancie1]

If everyone were reasonable and dropped the lawyer garbage the world would be a better place.

Do you really think that will happen until we get rid of all the lawyers? The fear of lawyers is one reason that our economy is at a standstill. I read today that new law graduates only have a 50% chance of finding a job. Law schools are having to limit enrollment to prevent even more starving lawyers. They are on the streets, hungry for any case they can find. Watch your backside.

 

[PLC GURU]

im a good honest reasonable fella. Im not worried, but I appreciate your concern.
(My lawyer says "watch your backside" could be considered a threat). lol...Have a good night, lets move onto better conversations.

 

[uptown47]

I'd rather have a written letter saying they're okay with it. only you know the guy said "yes". what happens when the company changes it's mind later on?
When he says "no" you have no use for a letter. you already know you shouldn't do it.

Excellent point. And I agree.

The reason I said a letter for "no" was in case the new mill owners take umbridge in the OP not handing over the software (because his new bosses have forbade it) and start getting heavy. He then has a concrete reason why he didn't do it.

However, after reading everything I would still go with my suggestion (if it was me). I think as long as you are just honest and upfront with everyone you'll know where you stand one way or the other.

;-)

 

[Marc_U]

Just keep it simple & basic.

Lawyers can argue & twist the law to make 'Black - White, and White - Black'.

The simplest thing, would simply charge a modest amount (in cash) for the cost of you storing the PLC back-ups, and leave it at that.



As an near equvalent experience:
I was working for a control-panel manufacturer, and one day out of the blue, we got a phone call from a company, which had bought some equipment which contained a panel that we had made many years before.

This company hadn't been our original customer, but had bought it 3rd or 4th hand, but then had left powered down for several months, and lost the PLC program.

They had back-tracked the equipment, but none of its previous owners had a copy of the software, but we had a printout of the original program. So we charged for them for the privilege to go to the factory, and re-enter that program into the PLC. So you could argue we got paid twice for the same programming job.

 

[Lancie1]

So we charged for them for the privilege to go to the factory, and re-enter that program into the PLC. So you could argue we got paid twice for the same programming job.

That is a very different case. Your company had legal rights to the program, so could charge for another copy. A fellow that only wrote the program while being paid by his employer really does not have any ownership rights either to sell or give away, and will be lucky if the real owner does not make a fuss.

Now what MAE might do is get permission (from whatever person, company, or entity inherited the ownership) to reinstall the backup copies, then charge for the work to do the installation. That is then clearly charging for the labor, not for the program rights.

 

[Marc_U]

That is a very different case. Your company had legal rights to the program, so could charge for another copy. A fellow that only wrote the program while being paid by his employer really does not have any ownership rights either to sell or give away, and will be lucky if the real owner does not make a fuss.

Now what MAE might do is get permission (from whatever person, company, or entity inherited the ownership) to reinstall the backup copies, then charge for the work to do the installation. That is then clearly charging for the labor, not for the program rights.

True.

However if you insist that he follows a strictly legal route. Then his only option is to destroy all copies and any other records he may technically illegally have.
And the new owners will have to employ their own software people to write a brand-new program.

So every-one loses.

Except for the Programmer who gets the contract to write the new PLC programmer.


Better to keep it at a level, of helping a friend out / Good-will.