OT: Ethics

[The Plc Kid]

Here defeating a LOTO is instant termination. No explanation,nothing. Does not matter who you are. Joe the greaser /oiler that started last week or the plant manager.

Cut a LOTO and your fired no exceptions. I have seen 3 people walked out the door for this. One of them very good and it hurt to lose him but he was still fired.

 

[OkiePC]

Here defeating a LOTO is instant termination. No explanation,nothing. Does not matter who you are. Joe the greaser /oiler that started last week or the plant manager.

Cut a LOTO and your fired no exceptions. I have seen 3 people walked out the door for this. One of them very good and it hurt to lose him but he was still fired.

I have 100% faith this is the case for hourly here with no less than 7 challengers to that hard fast rule, non of whom I saw at work again.

I think this is the first time a proven blatant violation has been brought against a director and his henchman.

Show me The Pudding.

I wanna believe the right thing will be done.

I await proof.

Pudding and the directors job. I am the most qualified and if they put me above the other guy (director not a party to this incident) who is part of this culture of "but we always", I can convert him, he is pretty cool, and knows when to defer to folks more knowledgeable, just has 20 years of bad habits that can take some time to break. I am just the guy yo do it too.

Even in OkieLand automation engineers can now draw 6 figures...I haven't done practice interviews in 15 months and the rates have gone from around 60 to 80k/yr to over 120 for project managers let alone engineering managers.

They are starting to realize 90% of the world does not eat or wipe their ask without guys like us . . . but kids aren't exactly flocking into Tractor Supply with a twinkle in their eyes or singing up for vo-techs either. Everyone seems to be wandering past each other, staring at their thumbs using ancient technology for narcissistic intentions.

 

[TConnolly]

Its grounds for termination where I work.

Whether that would happen or not is another guess. In this company I sure as heck am not going to risk it, but then I would never cut a lock off. Period.

It has been my experience that at some places policy is ignored when convenient and enforced rigidly when there is an agenda. I had a lock cut off several years ago when working for another company. The employee handbook specifically stated that cutting a lock off would result in termination, not could result, but would result. When the lock was cut off and the disconnect turned on it started a fire. The lock was cut by a shift supervisor. I grabbed the employee handbook and took it to management and opened it to the page. They did nothing, not even so much as a reprimand, and I spent a week of 14 hour days rebulding the burned control panel.

Good luck getting any redress for the current incident, but you can make it clear that you will not stand for anyone putting your life at risk. And demand an apology.

 

[jkerekes]

There are probably procedures in LOTO, that allow for a lock to be cut off under certain conditions. But it isn't an easy or fast procedure. You are dealing with peoples lives. A lot of companies put a picture of the person whose lock it is on the tag. this is to remind you whose life you are f**king with.

 

[Donnchadh]

Hi

Here in Ireland you are allowed to cut of locks but only when you have got the correct forms filled out and signed as someone could have left site and forgot to take a lock off or just lost a key , but if someone cut off my lock without asking me or without getting Rthe correct paper work it's a very serious matter and would lead to someone been sacked properly me after I lost the plot and hit someone

Donnchadh

 

[OkiePC]

There are probably procedures in LOTO, that allow for a lock to be cut off under certain conditions. But it isn't an easy or fast procedure. You are dealing with peoples lives. A lot of companies put a picture of the person whose lock it is on the tag. this is to remind you whose life you are f**king with.

ZackLee. The safety folks had no knowledge of this taking place, I could tell from the fact that the two of them both had a the same jawdrop bewildered look while I spoke my piece, asked for them to check it out, and proceeded to march back to the floor and have a normal day of start-up in the circus. We kicked so much *** (those of use who actually turn tools and respect locks) that I was bored by 10 am so I politely asked off to the director himself due to exhaustion. By now the fit has fanned the chit and I am out of slinging distance.

ANd now that the thundre' has moved onto the n.w. into OKC, maybe I can actually do that nap thingy for real this time.

 

[daba]

......

So, I padlocked a mini-din rail fuse holder which was wrong by me. I should have ended their whole operation for the day and locked out the main, but no, I want to see burgers flowing into MY 401k too.

my 2c, for what it's worth, just playing a bit of devil's advocate, without any disrespect.....

Providing that "padlocking a mini-DIN rail fuse holder" is an acceptable form of LOTO, and documented as such, you'll be "high-and-dry".

However, they may attempt to counter your arguments, by saying that you had not followed LOTO procedures, and you could be hauled over the coals.

Irrespective of any arguments about LOTO procedures, they removed a padlock that had so obviously been put in place to protect someone working on the plant, without finding out who, why, and making them aware that the padlock was coming off, is in my view, criminally negligent, and if they knew whose padlock it was - bordering on attempted murder !!

I would hope that the (ir)responsible persons are publicly dealt with, so that others will see the importance of LOTO.

Hope it all turns out well for you...

 

[dploof23]

Cutting off a lock carrys a "zero tolerance" with it in our company handbook. I can't even hand my key to someone to remove my lock for me, has to be me and me alone. I've seen someone try it and they were rightfully terminated on the spot.

Dave

 

[cwal61]

www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_General_Facts/factsheet-lockout-tagout.pdf

FYI

 

[OkiePC]

my 2c, for what it's worth, just playing a bit of devil's advocate, without any disrespect.....

Much appreciated, no disrespect taken.

And I agree with you, hence the mention of poverty, albeit short lived would give me time to stay home and put and 10k into my 76 cj5.

But my plan at that chess point is cell phone speed dial local detective. Which I will probably set up in advance. I will prosecute if the law says I can.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

You might consider dropping a dime on them to OSHA. Even if you extract yourself from the situation it establishes and attitude that will endanger someone at some point.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

You might consider dropping a dime on them to OSHA. Even if you extract yourself from the situation it establishes and attitude that will endanger someone at some point.

Yes, I'd go with this reply. In the UK its "HSE" (Health and safety Executive). An HSE inspector can do absolutely anything they want including stopping the process, collecting evidence, taking statements, being accompanied by a police officer.....you get the picture.

 

[daba]

You might consider dropping a dime on them to OSHA. Even if you extract yourself from the situation it establishes and attitude that will endanger someone at some point.

It is a sad reflection on humanity, but that may mean he never works again - it can be surprising "who knows who" across dissimilar industries - i've heard rumours of secretive "black-lists", and if they exist, it probably propagates by word-of-mouth - Director Joe of xyz tells his buddies from pqr and abc. They in turn tell 2 other people each, and so on... Before you know it, no-one will employ that person again.

I believe that in most cases companies will do more, and be more responsive, without the threat of actual proceedings by an "authorative" body. But of course they need the possibility of the "big guns" being called-in to give them a kick-start.

Here in the UK I'm seeing "safety" as causing the biggest changes in the places where i've worked on and off for many years. Re-visiting a site after only a few months away means a re-sit through induction videos, and the inevitable multiple-choice 20 questions.

OSHA states that it is the company's duty to provide, promote, and ensure compliance with adequate LO or TO procedures. In the OP's case, the company has the obligation to treat this case with the severity it deserves, and if they try to brush it under the carpet, then that may be the time to blow some whistles.

But sadly, as soon as that happens, catch-22 again, the bush telegraph kicks into life....

It is a tricky situation, and if it happened to me, I would be wary of going at it too strong, unless of course I had been injured to the point I could not work again.

Thankfully the OP is alive and well, he's obviously been "done wrong" - and he's justifiably p1$$3d about it.
I think the paramount thing is that the company recognises that they must take whatever steps necessary to ensure such an occurrence cannot ever happen again, that's the pro-active scenario. If that means removing people who either have the wrong attitude, or simply were not trained properly, then they have to do what they have to do.

If the company cannot make that recognition, then that may well be the time to start reporting, which will induce the re-active scenario, usually involving denial and a nobody wins result.

 

[gas]

OSHA would consider this a criminal act.
Call them first thing in the AM and ask what evidence they need for a prosecution.
This is important....

 

[daba]

OSHA would consider this a criminal act.
Call them first thing in the AM and ask what evidence they need for a prosecution.
This is important....

Of course it is IMPORTANT, undeniable, but does OSHA need to be involved yet. What is more important is that it doesn't happen again. That is the difficult one to manage.

Responsible management will actually be thankful that such a situation has occurred, so they can exert energies to rectify it, and go home knowing they've done the right thing, for the welfare of the people working on the site.

Put senior management into court, and they divert their efforts into defending their case, they'll have company lawyers working overtime trying to find loopholes.... it'll be 6 months or more before the fan stops spinning, and they stop dodging the $h1t that the fan is spewing. Only then do they actually start thinking about the core issues that got them into court, which of course is too late. Any time lost in resolving safety issues is too long.

Well, all said, here's hoping that responsible management exists in this case....