OT: LOTO Absense of energy verifcation

[mutabi]

Hey guys, OT I know, but I feel like there is another experience in this thread to get some good feedback.

So right now in our facility, our LOTO program allows equipment mechanics, operators, electricians to lock equipment out. Verification up until this point involved trying to restart the equipment. Recently though they have added that verification must be done with a meter.

Now, if a work is being done in a cabinet, then yes I agree, that needs to be done and there are plenty of regs for that. But if an operator is changing a grinding wheel, instead of locking it out and attempting to restart the machine, they will now have to summon an electrician who will have to suit up and verify the absence of power. To me that seems excessive. You will have electricians chasing operators and mechanics all day verifying the absence of power.

What is the industry norm when it comes to verifying something is safely locked out? Is this the direction that things are going?

TIA

 

[janner_10]

Never underestimate other people stupidity.

Someone checking they have isolated the CORRECT isolator is a good thing.

Is the inconvenience of finding an electrician to cast an eye over it a bad thing when sticking your arm into a machine with moving parts.

Plus USA so lawyers and ambulance chasers etc.

 

[77nomad]

My last company we started installing devices like this.
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwjO-JHAh7bnAhUH1sAKHW1vD5QYABAEGgJpbQ&sig=AOD64_2VnSEvP_IHoZBtY8s5oQtZ6SLqRg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwidxozAh7bnAhVXBc0KHbmZBpEQ2CkIvgI&adurl= Our LOTO procedure had us testing our meter twice. I can't remember the brand off hand but they were safe enough to pass our standards which was pretty far out in left field as far as practicality.

 

[bright676]

At our Company, if it has a cord we can use the cord in hand method.

 

[James Mcquade]

All it takes is 1 arc flash incident and a lost time accident due to that arc flash to let management know how serious the issue is! Osha will have a field day with your safety office and can shut down your plant until ALL discovered violations are corrected, instructions verified, and all people are trained.
Consider yourself warned from personal experience. then regular unannounced OSHA inspections and their sole duty then is to find violations.

LOTO energy verification rules are a pain, BUT this additional step has saved a lot of people. I personally had a 3 phase disconnect fail and one blade stayed energized. I got bit pretty bad. that was 30 years ago. its verification on everything electrical, pneumatic, hydraulic, punch press, stored energy of any kind! at this plant, it's Safety first, production can wait.

James

 

[gclshortt]

https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/hsprograms/lockout.html

https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/hsprograms/hazardous_energy.html

The first link summarizes what everyone is saying.
Regards,

 

[Aabeck]

Years back at a foundry in New Haven, Michigan a new electrician, second day on the job, fresh out of school, checked in a medium voltage panel and found bad fuses.

He closed the door, turned the disconnect handle off, locked it out, opened the "dead" panel and grabbed the fuses with his bare hands. Turning the disconnect handle did not turn the disconnect and he didn't verify no power when he opened the panel.

Literally cooked the meat in both his hands and both were amputated.

This was in the late 90's but still remember it every time I open a panel over 120V.

 

[Plastic]

Panduit Verisafe

https://www.panduit.com/en/landing-pages/verisafe.html

 

[Jasondelane]

Grace makes cabinet voltage detectors that allow you to see and measure absence of voltage from outside the cabinet.

 

[ValeoBill]

Understand first and foremost that LOTO is about "safety". In the inner circles, that word is the same as "liability". As an industrial electrician for 30 years and active in h&s for about half that, I have fought long and hard to simplify LOTO.As others have mentioned above, Panduit and Graceport are industrial recognized "proof of de-energization" devices. In order to have your superiors purchase these items, you must quantify - in time and dollars - what time and labour would be saved each time you could use such a device. Unless you can speak their language -$$$$$-, be prepared to haul your electrical PPE along every time "zero electrical energy" requires confirmation.

 

[Phil Buchanan]

I also agree with the addition of the grace products indicator lights. In the past I have installed a few of the Allen Bradley Electroguard systems for situations like this as one lockout point would isolate the electrical, air, water, etc. and provide verification in an automatic way.

Electroguard has since been discontinued but you could build your own with a safety PLC and safety rated components.
https://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/um/2030-um003_-en-p.pdf

I don't think having an electrician verify no power by suiting up and checking the panel is the best idea to do a non-electrical task like change a grinding wheel as every time you go in a panel you risk a potential ask flash incident.

I would think having grace indicators on the disconnect like these below which give you indication and a test point would be better as they can be used with lighter arc flash protection and are much safer than opening the panel each time. one of these could be added to the disconnect and just the indicator could be added on the machine.

https://www.graceport.com/voltagete...a893e637|ffe2f33e-9fea-4fe1-b061-a03ca4e663e6

Panduit verisafe might be a good solution for you also. I have 2 customers that use these and really like them https://www.panduit.com/en/landing-pages/verisafe.html

 

[GaryS]

Most use Grace Port
https://www.graceport.com/pesds?utm_referrer=https://www.graceport.com/

the work well but nothing is 100%

LOTO requires the lockout to be a disconnect within sight and with in 50ft of the motor not just the operator panel
maybe is your case they should hire people to just do the verification on the lock outs
I was in plant not long ago that required their electrician do the lockout first them I installed my lock. Whatever they want as long s they pay the bill

 

[jstolaruk]

Hey guys, OT I know, but I feel like there is another experience in this thread to get some good feedback.

So right now in our facility, our LOTO program allows equipment mechanics, operators, electricians to lock equipment out. Verification up until this point involved trying to restart the equipment. Recently though they have added that verification must be done with a meter.

Now, if a work is being done in a cabinet, then yes I agree, that needs to be done and there are plenty of regs for that. But if an operator is changing a grinding wheel, instead of locking it out and attempting to restart the machine, they will now have to summon an electrician who will have to suit up and verify the absence of power. To me that seems excessive. You will have electricians chasing operators and mechanics all day verifying the absence of power.

What is the industry norm when it comes to verifying something is safely locked out? Is this the direction that things are going?

TIA

In the case of a grinding wheel change, I assume that the danger is the spindle suddenly rotating under power. Does verifying the removal of power in the system actually prevent this? After a LOTO, wouldn't some kind of mechanical anti-rotate lock on the spindle be the true safety measure against this danger. The reason I say this is on some occasions, the LOTO is not enough; there may be mechanical stored energy in the system. And that should be detailed in the risk assessment. Does your facility have risk assessments available for all of the equipment?

 

[saultgeorge]

All it takes is 1 arc flash incident and a lost time accident due to that arc flash to let management know how serious the issue is! Osha will have a field day with your safety office and can shut down your plant until ALL discovered violations are corrected, instructions verified, and all people are trained.
Consider yourself warned from personal experience. then regular unannounced OSHA inspections and their sole duty then is to find violations.

LOTO energy verification rules are a pain, BUT this additional step has saved a lot of people. I personally had a 3 phase disconnect fail and one blade stayed energized. I got bit pretty bad. that was 30 years ago. its verification on everything electrical, pneumatic, hydraulic, punch press, stored energy of any kind! at this plant, it's Safety first, production can wait.

James

We had a 5kv disconnect at the water utility that was pretty good at having one blade still engaged and not pulled out with the other 2 on the first attempt. We had a pretty serious safety procedure for doing PM's on the 5kv gear. 2400 wouldn't just bite you good, it would probably seriously hurt you or worse. We had to verify with a non-contact tester, a contact meter (15kv) and visually plus attempt to start everything in that MCC section. "why didn't they fix or replace that disconnect?" you say. Who knows? Probably because it would mean taking down a critical station for who knows how long and I don't believe there was an exact replacement because it was really old.

 

[JesperMP]

From this side of the pond.
Testing for absence of energy, with the testing of the test device itself being part of the procedure, is mandatory for doing work inside electrical cabinets.

But what if you have to do maintenance in the field ? Say if a motor has to be replaced, the maint is used to LOTO the local repair switch, and then do his job.
If he had to do a test before opening the repair switch, then the motor would have to be powered up and running for the test to indicate anything. That would normally not be possible (because the motor is damaged, duh). What to do in that situation ?

I can imagine that regular live test of the repair switch itself should be part of a periodic safety check. In this way you have an increased assurance (but never 100%), that when the repair switch is indeed needed to safeguard the maint it will actually work.