password/timer for Guarenteed Payment

[4PLC]

I have had this request before and in my own business it has been tempting but it may be legal but not ethical. And any good programmer can get around this. It can be done easly by changing a bit to 0 and it would take a really good programmer to find it. I have had a counter to run for a months production and then put a message on the screen about payment but the unit would still function (but slowly). there are a lot of things to do like find company to work for.

 

[curlyandshemp]

This appears to be the overwhelming response, my question is this...
Would you have paid in full for all works completed ? OP did say that this would occur only so many days after payment was due. We aren't talking extrotion here ,we are just talking about finding a way to collect what is owed, sort of like the power company cutting off your power because you havn't paid your bill. Or the finace company repossesing the company truck because you didn't keep up with the payments. What is the difference between these examples and not paying for software provided?

We have come across situations where the customer states that they are not paying in full because the system is not working to their satisfaction or expectations. This usually occurs in those contracts that have 'grey areas' in the proposal.

We firmly believe the customer is always right eventhough when they are wrong.

So what do you do, put a time bomb in a system because you have not been paid fully because in the customer's perception the system is still not working?

But when it comes to non payment situations where everything is working to 100% satisfaction there are two types of customers,

1 - those that can't pay
2 - those that won't pay

In our company's 20 years, we have found #1 pays more often that #2

 

[Dua Anjing]

We have come across situations where the customer states that they are not paying in full because the system is not working to their satisfaction or expectations. This usually occurs in those contracts that have 'grey areas' in the proposal.

I agree the problem in this case should have been resolved in proposal stage

1 - those that can't pay
2 - those that won't pay
In our company's 20 years, we have found #1 pays more often that #2

But if it is all done "up front" and fully disclosed the threat of it alone may encourage some #2's to think carefully about their plans, admittedly it may also drive them to even more devious methods. Personally I tend to do more time based (either hourly or day rate_ work now. Even on larger jobs I have been lucky enough so that the contract "ended" at Factory acceptance and I was paid then (within a few weeks), and then I worked for the company at a time based rate to commission the equipment, if any matters arose during commissioning that were deemed to be warranty issues then I didn't charge for that time, basically it put the onus on the company to prove it didn't function correctly as opposed to me having to prove that it did.

 

[curlyandshemp]

I agree the problem in this case should have been resolved in proposal stage

But if it is all done "up front" and fully disclosed the threat of it alone may encourage some #2's to think carefully about their plans, admittedly it may also drive them to even more devious methods. Personally I tend to do more time based (either hourly or day rate_ work now. Even on larger jobs I have been lucky enough so that the contract "ended" at Factory acceptance and I was paid then (within a few weeks), and then I worked for the company at a time based rate to commission the equipment, if any matters arose during commissioning that were deemed to be warranty issues then I didn't charge for that time, basically it put the onus on the company to prove it didn't function correctly as opposed to me having to prove that it did.

A few years ago I had a customer read me the riot act regarding the rules for customer satisfaction.

He told me "that are two rules regarding customer satisfaction,

Rule #1 - The customer is always right
Rule #2 - If you have a problem with that, review Rule #1"

 

[Dua Anjing]

Yes I agree up to point the customer, but stops being right when he/she decides not to honor a contract. I have no objections to doing whatever the customer wants but I do have objections to not getting paid for what I have done. It's easy enough to say "find a better class of customer" or "don't work for those type of clients" but to find out if they are those type of clients you have to actually let yourself get shafted first. If I buy a car or a tv or a house and I default on payment the bank doesn't say "oh well the customer is always right" they say "you have a legal obligation that you have not fulfilled we are taking our stuff back", shouldn't we have some form of protection ?
I feel sorry for the #1's (those that can't pay) but if I have to chose between them and my family I know which I will choose. And if the #2's are just out to shaft me then as far as I'm concerned they are no longer entitled to be "always right".

Look at shareware, if you want to use the full-blown version, or if you want it to work after the trial period has expired then pay.

I don't think time-bombs are the complete answer because they can be defeated ,obviuosly there are a lot more "hiding" places in a PC style enviroment but, we do need some form of protection from shifty customers

 

[curlyandshemp]

Yes I agree up to point the customer, but stops being right when he/she decides not to honor a contract. I have no objections to doing whatever the customer wants but I do have objections to not getting paid for what I have done. It's easy enough to say "find a better class of customer" or "don't work for those type of clients" but to find out if they are those type of clients you have to actually let yourself get shafted first. If I buy a car or a tv or a house and I default on payment the bank doesn't say "oh well the customer is always right" they say "you have a legal obligation that you have not fulfilled we are taking our stuff back", shouldn't we have some form of protection ?
I feel sorry for the #1's (those that can't pay) but if I have to chose between them and my family I know which I will choose. And if the #2's are just out to shaft me then as far as I'm concerned they are no longer entitled to be "always right".

Look at shareware, if you want to use the full-blown version, or if you want it to work after the trial period has expired then pay.

I don't think time-bombs are the complete answer because they can be defeated ,obviuosly there are a lot more "hiding" places in a PC style enviroment but, we do need some form of protection from shifty customers

I guess it comes down to how big you are up against your opponent. As a single car/truck purchaser up against a multi national car company you are outnumbered and no one will listen to your cause.

We came across this scenerio last month. We are a small 20 man company doing a projcet in a 1000 employee plant. The plant demands we be present to install automation around a filler being installed by a 10,000 employee company. Guess what?, the 10,000 employee company tells the 1000 employee company they will not be present on the date that the 10,0000 employee company guaranteed. The 1000 employee company said, "OK, let us know when you are available".

You think our 20 employee company could get away with the same statement?

 

[Dua Anjing]

Thats the crux of the issue isn't it? Might beats Right. I'm lucky I suppose as one man show if a proposed customer dosn't like my terms I can always step backwards from it, buts thats no so easy if you have people depending on you/company income.

 

[OZEE]

...If I buy a car or a tv or a house and I default on payment the bank doesn't say "oh well the customer is always right" they say "you have a legal obligation that you have not fulfilled we are taking our stuff back", shouldn't we have some form of protection ?....

You do have EXACTLY that same form of protection.

When you default on a mortgage, your doors don't automatically lock and hold you hostage until you pay. Likewise, if you default on a car loan, the engine doesn't just shut off when you're going down the highway and lock the doors. When loans go into default, they have to go through legal methods to get either payment or return of the collateral.

Likewise, a wise contract for a programmer would provide such LEGAL provisions. Try to work with the company first for payment, then move into the legal system if that fails.

Putting a time bomb into a program, in my opinion, is either extortion or black-mail, unless the contract is very clearly written (and accepted!) to explain its cause, its operation, and its remedy.

I've been on both sides of this discussion. Previously, I was a SI and we had these discussions. Now, I'm your customer. We honor our contracts -- if you do the job, you will get paid. Shoot, we've even paid companies that didn't finish the job -- paid them for their time and what they had in the project -- then paid someone else to finish the job.

But in our T&C we also establish the right to withhold a final payment until the project is completed to our satisfaction. And that is based upon a predefined project scope. Sometimes that scope is defined in writing, sometimes it's verbal -- depends on the size of the job. But, again, that's something that's discussed prior to the contract.

 

[boardmaker]

We as a customer, are generally setup like ozee. We pay an initial payment. Usually 25%. Then when the job is started we usually pay 25%. Once the job is completed to our satisfaction, we pay in full. On a recent job, we had one outstanding issue. So on our final payment, we withheld only the amout of the part we had an issue with. It was resolved in a few weeks, and they received their money. I believe it's a moral issue. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew I was intentionally mistreating someone. On the other hand, if an oem sells me faulty equipment or service it should be dealt with also. Luckily, neither of those issues have ever come up.

 

[bernie_carlton]

Like this thread's original poster, I was only charged with developing a lock out system, not the relationship with the customer. The system is a PITA for me (individual by machine) but I have made it as easy as possible for the end user.

Management and accounting get to deal with the company - company end of the matter. I always provide some additional lock out time slots as the management may extend expected payment for just such unexpected reasons as others have pointed out.

 

[brucechase]

Bubba1 operator is on floor running his machine and says "Hey look at this message that keeps popping up". Bubba2 says "Oh, just acknowledge it and it will go away, I know, I've seen it before."

Then one day Bubba1 says "Hey I acknowledged it and this stupid machine won't start. Hmm, break time!"

 

[PeterW]

Legal and ethical issues aside, your boss would also be assuming that the end customer had no in-house engineers. If they did, the code you are referring to would be de-activated anyway. Just a thought.

Not if the code is password protected in some way to stop changes.

 

[OZEE]

Not if the code is password protected in some way to stop changes.

That's something that will keep you from ever doing business with my company again!

 

[Dua Anjing]

Bubba1 operator is on floor running his machine and says "Hey look at this message that keeps popping up". Bubba2 says "Oh, just acknowledge it and it will go away, I know, I've seen it before."

Then one day Bubba1 says "Hey I acknowledged it and this stupid machine won't start. Hmm, break time!"

We've actually had cases where the Plant has stopped and no-one knows why. When we look thru the Alarms logs we have found the reason , shown this to the "bubbas" and they have resopnded with "well you can't expect us to read every alarm, there's too many" this usually followed by "if that alarm is that imporatant can change the plc so that it re-triggers every copule of minutes to make sure we don't miss it". And they don't take it too kindly when we respectfully suggest that their proposed course of action will only add more alarms and therefore make it even harder to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Dua Anjing]

That's something that will keep you from ever doing business with my company again!

In PeterW's post I assumed that he meant the PLC code was password protected for the duration of the warranty period ( I know he didn't state that) If your policy prevents contractor/programmers from password protecting their work how do deal with warranty issues ?
The reason I am asking is that the company I work for bring in outside contractors when required to modify their safety plc's (S7), these are password protected so that they can viewed by anyone but the logic cannot be modified without the password. How else can you be sure that any problems that may show up during the warranty period are caused by the original contractor/programmer and not by someone else on nightshift taking a few shortcuts to get the plant operational?