password/timer for Guarenteed Payment

[Lancie1]

3. Can someone give me one real law based reason why this is illegal?

No, I can't, and I don't think it is illegal. But the legality is not the true test of whether you should do it. The real test is: If I do it, will I be sued for damages by the customer's legal team, and for how much?

Here in the U.S., just because something is legal doesn't mean you will not be sued successfully and have to pay out large amounts of money for shutting down a process or plant. You have the choice to pay up or fight in court--that is if you can afford the legal fees and are willing to spend the next 4 or 5 years in court.

Cigarette smoking was legal, but look how many billions have been paid out by the tobacco companies for damages to various people and governments--damages for an activity that was willingly and eagerly sought by the smokers (when any fool can see that smoking is not a healthful activity), yet the companies were still held to be responsible.

It is not whether you are justified and morally right in your actions, it is whether your actions can be presented to a jury as legally malicious, damaging, or irresponsible. All it takes is a vote by 12 people to put you in debt for several million bucks.

 

[OZEE]

What about extortion or black mail? Those are illegal...

 

[leitmotif]

That's somewhat of an apples-to-oranges comparison. The telephone company and the utility are cutting off your ability to accumulate additional charges, "sort of a fool me twice, shame on me" approach. They're telling you that when you pay what you already owe them, they'll be happy to restore your service and sell you their product again.

I don't know how your telephone company operates, but my bill for monthly service is payment in advance. The only charges that are after the fact are the toll calls.

REPLY Just had my phone reconnected. Had it on auto pay from my Visa - visa card expired new one issued which resulted in having to have all auto pays set up again. Forgot about phone company - they cut me off after not being paid for three months.

Here's another point to consider about the time bomb approach. Let's say the time bomb goes off, the customer sheepishly pays you what they owe, you remove the block, and all is once again right with the world. From that point on, whenever the machine goes down, whether it's caused by a broken wire, blown fuse, misaligned prox switch, or operator stupidity, you're going to be among the "usual suspects". If you subscribe to the belief that there is no such thing as negative publicity, and anything that gets your name mentioned is a good thing, then by all means use the time bomb. Besides, you'll always be a hero to those people who appreciate your ability to stick it to the man.

REPLY I agree the time bomb idea could result in you getting blamed for any and all faults. I guess the whole issue really boils down to buyer and seller being honest and reliable people.
If they are then a multi million dollar deal would go thru like a dream. If not -- regardless of how many ton of contracts you have it just wont work out.
Dan Bentler

 

[ToolGuyFred]

I only did this once (about 17 years ago). The customer had consistantly been 3 months behind his payment schedule. I set up a "feature" in an S5 system to delete its program and appear to have had its backup battery removed. This was set to happen on plc start-up SIX MONTHS from final commissioning. The contract said that the customer got electronic copies of the documentation and program after the final payment. The customer refused the final payment (about 15 grand - more than my annual salary at the time - if my memory serves me correctly) and in due course the time-bomb went off. We got a phone call to say they had a problem and had called out a local software house. These guys told them that someone had pulled the back-up battery and the software would have to be loaded in. When I arrived, the cheque was waiting...

 

[Hundikoer]

I only did this once (about 17 years ago). The customer had consistantly been 3 months behind his payment schedule. I set up a "feature" in an S5 system to delete its program and appear to have had its backup battery removed. This was set to happen on plc start-up SIX MONTHS from final commissioning. The contract said that the customer got electronic copies of the documentation and program after the final payment. The customer refused the final payment (about 15 grand - more than my annual salary at the time - if my memory serves me correctly) and in due course the time-bomb went off. We got a phone call to say they had a problem and had called out a local software house. These guys told them that someone had pulled the back-up battery and the software would have to be loaded in. When I arrived, the cheque was waiting...

I like that one- nice job!

Years ago I used on a machine (without a HMI) a free input. After money landed I, made a phonecall to customer and explained that he should better hardwire the input (fore ON) to avoid possible anomalies in the future.

 

[Steve Bailey]

The customer had consistantly been 3 months behind his payment schedule.

That's what I'm talking about when I say "find a better class of customer". By using similar tactics, you're running the risk of getting into a race to see who crosses the line from unethical to illegal first.

 

[ToolGuyFred]

That's what I'm talking about when I say "find a better class of customer". By using similar tactics, you're running the risk of getting into a race to see who crosses the line from unethical to illegal first.

Of course we never dealt with that customer again. Our investigations prior to taking the order showed that (although 200 miles away - not ideal) they were good payers. Turned out this was the first time their buyer had purchased a machine. The engineering manager (who was still responsible for signing off the machine) resented not being tasked with placing the order (with his brother's company just up the road).

In the end it was a win-win situation: we got our money and he got our determination never to quote for his employers again. I can't say I was comfortable either doing it or with the cowboy outfit I worked for. I was acting under the instructions of the company owner (judge, your honour) and as a control engineer with a doctorate in engineering, he wasn't going to accept that it couldn't be done.

If you want to talk about ethics, this situation was as bent as they come. In this situation, why wouldn't you do what it takes to get what you're owed? (And I was confident that there were only a few bytes left after my code "eat itself" - nothing that would stand up in court as a "smoking gun". Even if they'd backed up the plc code and re-run it, the altered vector in the file allocation table would only point to empty memory. The time bomb had been "poked" in byte by byte. I often curse them but in this case it was "God bless Siemens".)

 

[Steve Bailey]

The time bomb had been "poked" in byte by byte.

How much time did you spend developing and testing the time bomb? Compared to the amount of money you were owed, what was the cost/benefit ratio? What revenue-producing project were you not working on while you were busy getting even with those b*****ds who dared to pay their bills 3 months late.

I know this sounds judgemental, but that's not my intent. I'm trying to toss out a few counter arguments for when the boss asks you about installing a closed loop collection algorithm.

 

[ToolGuyFred]

How much time did you spend developing and testing the time bomb? Compared to the amount of money you were owed, what was the cost/benefit ratio? What revenue-producing project were you not working on while you were busy getting even with those b*****ds who dared to pay their bills 3 months late.

I know this sounds judgemental, but that's not my intent. I'm trying to toss out a few counter arguments for when the boss asks you about installing a closed loop collection algorithm.

It took a few hours, a day at most. (Mostly a statement list routine to write zeros into memory - not that big when you take a hex dump of it.) Not too significant time wise when it collected a cheque in excess of my annual salary. These guys weren't three months late when our "insurance policy" matured, the bill was six months late and they weren't going to pay up at all. I don't see this as "getting even" either. It cost me a day and a 400 mile drive just to collect the cheque, which we were owed.

As I stated earlier, I wasn't really that comfortable with it but when you're in your early 30s and younger you see that sort of task as something of a personal challenge. These days I guess I'd be far more likely to try to play the ignorance card.