Paying For Technical Support

[IT_guy]

I know you are very bright. But some of us are not so.

no he is not, he just spent alot of time and made alot of mistakes and askes alot of questins to the rep, what one man can do another man can do.

I don't like IT_Guy's attitude which is help me fix my screw ups for free or else. I think that is disrespectful to place no value on help that one needs and all the time and effort it took to gather that knowledge

this is so untrue, even 3 years old kid can fix screws, when A programmer is programming the product for the first time, and alot of things seems to be so confusing cause his is not familiar yet with the product(not lazy), I dont think a guy's hobby might be nagging over the rpe's head, OK, now dont tell me you do every thing without reading the manual 100 times++,

one more thing to clarify...

I usually dont ask for rep's technical support, I read the manual(english most of the time) what if my native language is not english and I need help cause there are some terms I dont understand?? I should go and pay for the rep ???


common man...I dont think this is fair at all....

when I sell my machines I teach every body how to use it , and how it functions, and it is my obligation...

so my opinion is: NO I DONT WANNA PAY.... they have to support me when I need their help.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Of course you pay!

Phillip is absolutely right. You ALWAYS have to pay for tech support. After all, the guys providing support need to eat, and the companies that employ them need to make a profit.

The real question is whether you hide the cost in the product price (the AutomationDirect.com model), or pass it on to the distributors (the Allen Bradley preferred model), or charge a fee for it (the Modicon and Siemens factory support model).

You pays your money and you takes your choice. The supplier does the same thing - they try to maximize their profit, which in a smart manufacturer also means considering the total value to the customer.

Do I get mad about annual support fees - you're darned right I do! But then, I usually don't call when the problem is of the "Is it plugged in?" type. In my saner moments I recognize that it is the manufacturer's right to recoup their support costs any way they choose. I guess I'd feel better about paying a separate support fee if I'd get a refund when I find out that the problem isn't properly documented in the manuals, or especially when I find a bug or failure of the product to perform exactly as advertised. Over the years I'd have definitely made out on the deal!

 

[Pierre]

Re: Of course you pay!

...I guess I'd feel better about paying a separate support fee if I'd get a refund when I find out that the problem isn't properly documented in the manuals, or especially when I find a bug or failure of the product to perform exactly as advertised. Over the years I'd have definitely made out on the deal!

That would be nice!

But I have never found ANY bugs in warez.

Most of the times, dumb as I am, I never tought of first re-installing my OS and then re-installing there warez and then adding more memory and then...

I also have never read there 15 read-this-first pages. It all is my fault.

You know where I'm going don't you?

 

[Allan Barnes]

Tell you what, when it comes to tech support give me some who actualy "knows" what is going on and I wil gladly pay.
There in lies the problem, when I call tech support I get some one reading out of a book. Most of my problems seem to be well out side the realm of of any "Tech Support Manual". Lets face it if the Tech support person making minumum wage in a call center can answer the question, you could have answerd it by reading the manual. With that said, I think the worst offender is GE, followed closly by Seimens. I can't realy say any thing about AB becuase I have never had to use them. With there stuff my questions have been anwered by the manual or the "Knowlege base". For the more elaborite questions I come here, where truly knowlageable people are available to me.

Ken why do you take it so personal, AB is the most widly used product in north america, of course ther is going to be more complaining over this product. If AB was not a generally good product it would be going the way of Modicon. I think what upsets people off the most about AB is you a fair chunk of change for hardware, then they bend you over say by the way the soft ware you need cost just as much. Once you own the software you are ok but is that initial investment that sucks. Then after you shelled out a decent chunk of change they say of by the way if you want teck support you got to pay again.
Does it matter to the lage automation houses, no. They built it in to the cost of doing buisness. Who it hurts is the small guys where what they spend equipmet directly effect there take home pay. If any thing Ken you should take it as a compliment that product you stand behind is being widly used. After all complaints are easy to come by, praise is hard to come by even they are due.

 

[elevmike]

Ok so I'm one of the minority that voted "let them charge whatever they want"..

As already stated. Support, or even free software is not really free.. and it's entirely up to the manufacture how they want to support support.

I'm gonna guess that, with the exception of a few like Peter, Tom, and myself, a lot of members of the forum arnt really that involved in the "busniess" end of the businiess. From my standpoint, we build the panel, do the install, and mataine the equipment. So when push comes down to shove the PLC related stuff is a very small factor in the overall cost of the project. So many would think that I use AD because of cost, and free support. Not really. It's the convienience of not having pull out a credit card, or get a P.O. etc when in need of support from the manufacture. The whole expireance, from pricing out the project and ordering the material, to getting quick and good support, is just very convenient and time effient. For us that equates into total project cost.

The bottom line is I am paying for support and software, and so are you. No matter what equipment you are using... The only differance is HOW I choose to pay for it... So really this an the other poll is invalid. The questions should be is HOW do you want to pay for software and support....

 

[akreel]

Most of my problems seem to be well out side the realm of of any "Tech Support Manual".

I think most of the people who've responded feel that way, too. My experience with tech support, PLC or OTHERWISE has been not been positive. I usually find that I get the problem solved or find a new product before I get the return phone call. Much of the time the answer is "you CAN'T do that." To which I've said once or twice "yes you can, would you like to know how?" I'm not usually nasty about it either, because I want the next poor guy with the same problem to get an answer, too!

That being said, of course I'm not keen on paying for support, warranty, or friendly service. But then again, unless I'm buying a DVD player at Best Buy, I'm NOT paying the bill. Whatever makes my boss happy is fine by me. When I get to be the boss some day, then I'll have much stronger convictions.

AK

 

[GregPLC]

Locally, in my case......Dealing with AB is not good, lousy support at best in my opinion. I deal with the local AB distributor for support, and they do a very good job. They have knowledgeable engineers on staff, and seem like they have more interest in keeping you as a customer than AB does.

Greg

 

[PhilipW]

Well that kind of makes sense Greg. Although the AB corporate does provide a fairly strong support structure, their commercial model is focussed on the AB distributor building up the ongoing relationship.

 

[Allan Barnes]

Even that type of relationship envolving your local rep has its limits. The local reps can help with basic set up, but when you get to the heavy hitting stuff. I have quicky ended up talking at level over the heads of the local reps (not all the time but enough). It would be nice to get those answers strait from donkeys mouth.

In the end I have found great answers from this site from reps Like Ken Roach. I only hope that AB, GE, seimens etc reconize this and perhapse become responsive to the market. Who knows maby Myself and those like me only make a very small portion of the market and therefor get swept aside(I hope Not).

 

[akreel]

Even that type of relationship envolving your local rep has its limits. The local reps can help with basic set up, but when you get to the heavy hitting stuff. I have quicky ended up talking at level over the heads of the local reps (not all the time but enough). It would be nice to get those answers strait from donkeys mouth.

Milwaukee is a special case, Allan. We have an AB distributor here who is hard to separate from the manufacturer. They even offer training classes. They also tend to stock most parts, which is very cool for doing a system on-the-fly (if you're crazy like that).

It's almost not worth paying for support here. If Holt/Revere can't handle your problem, you're going to be waiting for the next version of the software, anyway.

I think the only guys who must get better coverage than us are the Australians. I still want to know why you guys seem to know all the cool tricks, Philip!

AK

 

[CaseyK]

Martin T.

I DON'T deal with them!



Ken

That particular shop is a sore subject across half the state. I started out with an extension of the FREE SOFTWARE thread. Since so many have talked about Tech Support, it seemed natural to put one up for it.

Ken, I know that you are very knowledgeable, dedicated, and probably work VERY VERY hard to provide a good level of support. I know reps (sales and service) from other companies that do the same. I am not saying that you should not get paid for what you do. That fact remains, other manufacturers are providing a similar level of support in a more cost effective manor for the customer.

Perhaps, the smaller the manufacturer, the more inexpensive the support, less overhead and all.

As far as the local supplier goes, the only good price I've ever gotten for anything is the $99 plc. Except for the insults, which are always FREE. This goes back to 1973 when I was their largest Hoffman customer, building emergency lights and diesel engine autostart cranking panels. I used the industry standard octal and 11 pin plug in relays (thousands of KUP's each year), and they started with "we can build it better and cheaper and use "-------" relays.

I've been waiting five years to be put into the computer for a cash account, with the last two waiting for the branch manager to do it personaly.

Had similar problems with the other local distributor (Sq D), they just don't understand cash accounts.

Anyway, this isn't an attack on one manufacturer.


And judging from the poll results............


regards.....casey

 

[Ken Roach]

It's election season. EVERYBODY will vote for free bread and circuses.

I'm not going to lecture you on how the economies of scale work backwards in the support business. There is a massive infrastructure that needs to be in place to support the really big automation clients that just does not easily support the small ones as cheaply as a small-user-only company can.

 

[Ken Roach]

Let me add one opinion here and remind you that I don't think that RA got it exactly right when they rolled out the Tech Connect program. They got some things right; most of my users who were paying their bills actually got a reduction in support costs. Those who weren't paying at all, of course, saw an increase ! The program also makes available some very high levels of support for customers who need it; RA does some very fancy stuff with direct network connectivity and 24/7 monitoring from a command center in Cleveland.

I think RA should have gone with a Reaganomics approach and cut the price of basic phone and update support by 50%, but included the firm requirement that support be paid.

This would have greatly expanded the number of users paying for support and resulted in a net increase of income for the support organization.

Only about 20% of the licensed users of RSLogix 5 and 500, for example, were paying their support fees. I think that could have increased to 60% or more if the price of support had been slashed, combined with a blanket piracy amnesty.

That's all I can talk about tonight; I have to get ready for a 3 AM boiler shutdown. At a customer who, curiously enough, always pays their bills.

 

[CaseyK]

Don't forget the pony rides.

I hope that, whoever wins, will help the economy grow. But, alas, methinks I'm being a bit optomistic.

PUBLIC APOLOGY TO KEN:

AB does have good products.

They have a lot of dedicated employees, such as yourself. Unfortunately, you take a lot of heat on this site.

They have a lot of good distributors around the country/world.

Like with any manufacturer, not everyone can get along with every one of their distributors. I will use AB products, there are a lot of other brands that I won't. Often, I even recommmend AB over other brands, depending on the application, location, and level of local support needed.

Many years ago, I was prominant in touting the virtues of GE mobile radio euipment. Even when I was working for Motorola. I went to schoools from both manufacturers, taught classes for both, requisitioned scads of both while working for a local government. Pushed for GE every chance I got.

As I look back, I have only owned one GE radio, that I bought to resell. Currently, I have lots of Motorola radio equipment, at least 5 walkie talkies, 4 mobile radios, and over a dozen pagers and monitors, all for personal use. So much for GE.

TO ALL:

If you have never used AB, at least get a ML1000 for $99 (with FREE software) and try it. They also have a starter kit on a larger model, whereas you wind up with free software in the long run.

Download PicoSoft, for the AB Pico smart relays, which just happens to work on probably every Moeller "easy" relay that has been relabelled. Whoever did the PicoSoft software, albeit AB or whoever, did an excellent job. Check with your local AB distributor (and maybe the next one over) and perhaps you can get a better price on the smart relays then the same innurds from another brand.

Don't sell AB short, personnal experiences and personnal preferences play a large part in this industry.

And to two of my ham "buddies" I pm on here every couple of months, I have not been shocked again, bribed, or sold out. BTW, you both are a little behind on your postings.

regards to all.....casey

 

[akreel]

This is just food for thought... Possibly a bright flash from an otherwise dim bulb.

It's interesting that US Bank (a HUGE company, with a HUGE installation base, and MILLIONS of customers) has "free" call centers. Of course they pay for all those call centers by charging outrageous fees, and justify the fees by telling you how expensive it is to operate call centers to take calls from all the people asking about fees... But at least with the bank(s), you at least have to do something wrong before you're charged for it.

This is a very technical field, and while I've met some interesting characters, most of us understand the products we're using better than the average home PC owner or bank customer. Wouldn't you think that having a knowledgable person on BOTH ends of the phone call would decrease your support costs?

What's the purpose of an annual support fee? Most of the stupid mistakes I'm going to make with a product will be within the first year or two. That's when the support center is going to get most of my calls. So, what's wrong with the one-time warranty-style support fee? Charge me and get it over with.

AK