Replacing a Customer's Damaged Panelview 550, P/N 2711-K5A2

[AutomationTechBrian]

A customer asked me if I could replace a damaged PV550. Before I answer him, I'd like to get confirm a couple of details.

1. Would PanelBuilder 32 be the program I'd use to upload the runtime file?
2. My understanding is, passwords would not affect being able to upload, then download the runtime file to a new PV... is that correct?
3. Looks like there are plenty of units available in Ebay and other sources. Any specific recommendations for suppliers tied to this community?
4. As simple as this seems, I've never had to replace an old PV. Are there any gotchas that I should be aware of?

I currently have FTV, but not PB32, so if I need PB32 for this customer, it will be time to for me to pull the trigger and buy it. (current quote $650ish) ...I do consider this a good thing. But if FTV is used, I'll possibly hold off a while.

 

[Ken Roach]

Can you still access the configuration menus by pressing the left and right arrow keys during startup ?

If so, the best way to transfer a program to a new terminal is to insert a CompactFlash card (under 2GB, formatted FAT16) into the terminal and copy the *.PVA (PanelView Application) file to that card, then reverse the process on the new terminal.

PanelBuilder32 is the correct program. The Upload/Download Utility is called WinPFT and it is installed along with PanelBuilder32.

Because this is a 2711-xxx2 terminal, it only supports DH485. You will need a 1747-UIC or similar device to connect to its DH485 network port.

 

[Mickey]

Addition to Ken's post, see pdf

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Thanks, Ken and Mickey! Ken... Funny you replied. I was just reading one of your posts for another topic I needed to research last night, and I thought to myself, I haven't heard from Ken in a while. I wonder if he's still actively posting. I'll put the part number in the topic and see if he bites. (Fyi, Ken has a wealth of information, but you better have the details ready.)

I'll hand off the part number to the office to find a replacement. Two questions I thought of overnight.

1. For direct replacement of the file, how important is the match between the Series, Revision, and Firmware? This is a reoccurring question they ask me, so I'm hoping to have some guidelines to add to my reference files.

2. Should I worry about losing the file if they UPS the PV to me? The logical answer seems to be no, because the panel gets powered down all the time. But I still remember having to re-create a plastic extruder control PV that lost it's file. The customer purchased the plastic extruder from a used machine dealer. The SLC and the PC/Wonderware files were all intact, but the small PV operator panel lost it's file, and I've never reconciled that situation.

 

[OkiePC]

1. For direct replacement of the file, how important is the match between the Series, Revision, and Firmware? This is a reoccurring question they ask me, so I'm hoping to have some guidelines to add to my reference files.

It depends. Some of the newer firmware added features, mostly though they're just bug fixes. If the application makes use of a feature only present in newer firmware and you try to load it into a PV with older firmware, there will be problems. Having your own copy of Panelbuilder32 would give you to tools to overcome any potential issues as well as the capability to improve the application, modify it for different catalog numbers, and the ability to migrate to other more current hardware.

2. Should I worry about losing the file if they UPS the PV to me? The logical answer seems to be no, because the panel gets powered down all the time. But I still remember having to re-create a plastic extruder control PV that lost it's file. The customer purchased the plastic extruder from a used machine dealer. The SLC and the PC/Wonderware files were all intact, but the small PV operator panel lost it's file, and I've never reconciled that situation.

This is a very low risk in my opinion. We used to pre-load applications into panelview standards and keep them on the parts room shelf for years.

 

[Ken Roach]

The 2711-K5A2 goes back to the mid-1990s, so there's a risk of buying one with very old firmware. But only the Series A, firmware 1.x could not be upgraded.

I think that support for ordinary FAT16-formatted ATA Flash memory cards was added in firmware revision 3.x. Prior to that they only supported Linear Flash cards, which was the BetaMax of flash card technologies.

"Modern" CompactFlash cards use ATA type memory, so you can format one (under 2GB) for FAT16 and the PanelView should recognize it. You need to put it in a Type II PCMCIA carrier, of course, to fit in the card slot.

If your replacement terminal has Version 3 or later firmware, then the worst-case outcome is that you need PanelBuilder32 and its firmware kits to upgrade the terminal so it will run the *.PVA file created for a version 4.46 terminal.

I agree that the PanelView Standard internal flash memory has an indefinite lifetime and is extremely rugged. Unless the main board is badly damaged, it will still have the program saved.

Fun with labels: "FAC1U" means it was built in Factory 1, which I think is Mayfield Heights, Ohio. The date code looks like May of 2006.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Fantastic!!! Thank you Paul and Ken! Ken, how you recall all that stuff is beyond me! I keep trying to perfect a method of remembering just the knowledge I pick up on service calls. I am *not* there yet... but at least I think it's getting better. Seeing the same issue more than once certainly helps!

I was out on a service call when your notification emails came. As I drove home I reflected on the fact that... with the exception of my two senior techs, my whole network of technical help is made up of people I wouldn't recognize if they were standing right next to me.

Btw... my service call was at a waste water treatment plant. They had two of the PV 550s in the cabinet right next to where I was working. Out of curiosity I checked them out. They were Series F, Rev J, FRN 4.0... connected on DH+. I thought that seemed odd since the PLC was a SLC 5/05, but I guess the system was upgraded, and they now use a PC-SCADA instead. I never figured out where the DH+ cables went, but that wasn't important for what I was doing.

 

[Ken Roach]

Interesting ! I wonder what those terminals are connected to.

It does lead to a bit of history/product info.

The PanelView Standards physically have the same main control board and a communications daughtercard that connects with a very long pin header and some sturdy standoffs.

In theory, the terminals could have been built with a modular communications card and loaded with the appropriate firmware. But when these things were designed, flash memory was expensive and consistency and reliability were more important than flexibility, and DH+, RIO, and DH485 were the only games in town.

The boot firmware is a one-time factory load, and it specifies the comms hardware. Boot firmware can't be changed except at the factory (I assume with a JTAG connection to the control board). If you load the runtime firmware for the wrong terminal, it will boot with a hardware diagnostic error.

So as much as you might be tempted, you can't replace the DH+ daughtercard on one of those disused terminals with a DH485 daughtercard.

The only terminals that *can* have different firmware loaded into them are the PanelView 300 Micro, which has a serial port built-in. You can load either the DF1 or DH485 versions of firmware into those.

 

[Phil Buchanan]

If your customer is willing to entertain the idea of upgrading to a panelview plus or similar in the near future and you do end up needing panelbuilder 32 your local distributor may be willing to send their tech guy to help free of charge on the "sales call" so that you are not having to purchase the software.

The migration from panelview standard to panelview plus is fairly easy so it would be something you may want to consider.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Phil, as it turns out, you are spot-on! I found out last night that the customer wants to upgrade to something current. Actually, I've been waiting for this moment. I'd like to find out what the process is like because I suspect, with my customer base, upgrading legacy equipment would be a good thing to get into.

 

[borisuk]

A customer asked me if I could replace a damaged PV550. Before I answer him, I'd like to get confirm a couple of details.

1. Would PanelBuilder 32 be the program I'd use to upload the runtime file?
2. My understanding is, passwords would not affect being able to upload, then download the runtime file to a new PV... is that correct?
3. Looks like there are plenty of units available in Ebay and other sources. Any specific recommendations for suppliers tied to this community?
4. As simple as this seems, I've never had to replace an old PV. Are there any gotchas that I should be aware of?

I currently have FTV, but not PB32, so if I need PB32 for this customer, it will be time to for me to pull the trigger and buy it. (current quote $650ish) ...I do consider this a good thing. But if FTV is used, I'll possibly hold off a while.

I would transfer program to FTV and use panelview plus 7. After transferring you my have to check if everything is OK. you will have to make new factorytalk linx communications. It is not very hard to do. I think that buying hardware from ebay for your customer is not a very good approach.

 

[OkiePC]

The conversion to PV+ might be easy, but it could turn into a headache too. I have had one that was easy, and three that were difficult due to ... well so many things wrong with FCTME View Studio...

Now I just manually convert them to Crimson and use Red Lion hardware...the development time can be longer, but the end result is much much better, the hardware is better and less expensive and the software is free.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

I'm starting to look into transferring it. The biggest hurdle is the RS485 communication. The PVP7 is only Ethernet, so I would have to upgrade the SLC CPU to a 5/05, or have a different solution with a Micrologix networked to the SLC's I/O. In theory, with enough time, I could figure either one out. But I'm a little hesitant to jump on this train during a very busy time of year. I could go with a PVP6, but that will be obsolete this fall, and we're back at the beginning.

Paul: I just *knew* you were going to mention the Red Lion conversion. With the above issues, I might have to consider that. I'm just afraid of taking on too many things at once. ...and I'd really like to get good at this.

 

[Phil Buchanan]

Phil, as it turns out, you are spot-on! I found out last night that the customer wants to upgrade to something current. Actually, I've been waiting for this moment. I'd like to find out what the process is like because I suspect, with my customer base, upgrading legacy equipment would be a good thing to get into.

Yes upgrading legacy equipment is a very good part of the business and pays well. It never gets boring because you almost never do it the same way twice unless it's on the same brand / model of equipment.

 

[Phil Buchanan]

I'm starting to look into transferring it. The biggest hurdle is the RS485 communication. The PVP7 is only Ethernet, so I would have to upgrade the SLC CPU to a 5/05, or have a different solution with a Micrologix networked to the SLC's I/O. In theory, with enough time, I could figure either one out. But I'm a little hesitant to jump on this train during a very busy time of year. I could go with a PVP6, but that will be obsolete this fall, and we're back at the beginning.

Paul: I just *knew* you were going to mention the Red Lion conversion. With the above issues, I might have to consider that. I'm just afraid of taking on too many things at once. ...and I'd really like to get good at this.

You could contact HMS Networks or Prosoft and get a gateway to work between a PVP 7 and the existing hardware but I would use it as an opportunity to upgrade it to a compactlogix or similar.

As OkiePC said above a Red Lion unit will support the hardware that is there and would be cheaper than a PVP 7 so that's a good option also.

There is no simple answer when trying to couple old technology with new technology. There will be headaches no matter what path you take.

May the Force be with you.