What counts, the Truck or the fellow?

[Pierre]

In gaz tank management. In a wide area. (10 miles x 10 miles)

Pumps and autorisations will be managed by some wireless networked PLCs power is Solar).

In the What-IF section of the development. Do you guys feel it is better, in the long run, to managed the users (with RFID keys) or the vehicules (same tags)?

Over 10 years, which system will be safer, in an econimical kind of way.

I feel we should tag the Truck but others want to tag the peoples.

I say I dont want to manage dozens of keys getting lost and have there tags emulated where just the fact of keeping records is a pain...

Sooooo! Would you guys Tag the fellows or the Trucks?

(80 people have access to 30 trucks.)

 

[Rube]

Both.

An operator would have to have a key to put gas in a vehicle with a key. This would prevent the gas from going into personal vehicles and prevent a stolen truck from getting gas.

I would NOT however, under any circumstances, issue a key to a pancake-wearin' rabbit.

 

[rsdoran]

I would think truck also, that could help eliminate any ideas of obtaining fuel for personal use if its possible.

Using the trucks could also offer some background information on mileage (x gals of fuel = y miles driven) that may help with scheduling maintenance.

I assume since there are 80 drivers that anyone could be driving any truck at anytime so that would hinder if not make impossible trying to monitor fuel usage per miles per vehicle if the drivers are tagged.

It would be difficult using either to determine how many miles a day or week a driver had if that information was wanted.

 

[Allen Nelson]

Ask yourself WHY

Pierre:

Why are you tagging either trucks OR people? Why aren't you considering tagging BOTH?

What are you going to do with this information?

When you can answer the last question, you'll probably have your answer.

If the answer is: "To allow access to the gas", then you need to run through the scenarios:

- Is it OK for one guy to fill up multiple trucks ("Lost yer RFID, Fred? Here - use mine")?

- Is it OK for someone to fill up his personal car? Where does the bill go to?

 

[elevmike]

What security system and software are you using?

Personally I go for both. Who's putting gas in what truck . Think about it the keytags/keyfobs are cheap, and not really hard to track with the proper softare like this: http://www.securakey.com/docs/downloads/downloads.html

The ability to trak both the keys and the truck would provide much better security, and cost only a few bucks more.

 

[electrified3]

Let's start with the basics,

Is it within your capability to track both operators and trucks?

If not what is your main preference of tracking, people or trucks for the data collection use and effectiveness? Is the use of the truck or the abuse of the people the issue?

Can you track the trucks, constant, and force the people to do paperwork? Note paperwork gets the magic pencil on occasion and you will require someone to input the data into the system to make it useful, so automating the data collection under tracking both seams to be the most effective, in my opinion, but all depending on how you plan or propose to use the information.

 

[elevmike]

If Perrire were to google RFID he would find a few million different prepackaged soulutions for traking software. He could use it to track the truck, how much gas, and the people using or gassing the truck all at the same time with relative ease. Just because youve got tons of data dosnt mean you want to use it all the time, but it might come in handy to detect a problem. I dont belive this would require any paper work because all the tracking and logging etc.. would be done without user intervention. Thats the bonus. But the real goal is to provide secruity for the gas stations.

I've installed RFID stuff many times. Sometimes the customer will use it to track, and other times not. It's their choice, but with all the systems we've installed tracking is available, and it's not that complicated.

Mike.

 

[Rod]

If driver #41 fuels truck 'G' and has to use a personal card/identifier on his key-ring AND the one on the truck's key-ring - it STILL doesn't prevent 'uncle Ned' from being next in line.

Since the driver doesn't consume the fuel, only the truck does; then I would track the vehicle only.

Surely a local utility already has a working scheme in-place.

A good puzzle.

Rod (the CNC dude)

 

[Pierre]

OK Here is a more detailed description of the process.

A BIG companie has equipments scatered over a mountainous wooded area.

These are Pickup trucks, SUV, and ... snow moving gizzmos.

The terrain is no easaly accessible for Jo Nobody. Over the area there are 1K gallons fuel cisterns.

So they have a tanker truck driving the full circuit all the time. They do not know what they have and where they have it.

Soooo! We have to get the data to Home Base. This means level.

We already are prepared for Solar power and wireless exchange of Data, levels and Flowmeters.

Since this is a little costly we are putting in a addition to the project to have USAGE as the transmitted Data.

The original need was to help in the planning of a more efficient refuelling route for the tanker truck.

Then questions of Who take how much from the tanks was evidently raised.

The fuel does not seem to be disapearring. Unless some where also messing with the vehiculs odometers

There is some gray area in the second hand data that they have. Most vehicules will run at least idle for most of the winter months. So how much fuel do they burn is not exactly related to the distance they travel.

The discussion about misappropriation of this fuel was raised and I maintain that what they really cared was where it went. In there trucks or not.

We are ready to send the Data to an SQL database but a PLC is not really a good "Master of the Keys".

If we are to get 200 keys in 10 years and need to check a table to autorise someone to use the gaz station its not efficient.

Tagging 50 vehicules is a lot easyer.


For example, an employe would drive 5 mile in the woods and stop at this gaz station. Its not more than a shack. But its locked and has nice solar panels on top of it.

Has the truck get close to the shack, the system autorises the user. Truck drive away, system locks back.

I will check in getting both Tags.

For the sake of the database it would be nice to have.

Truck unlocks system AND user RFID get picked up along the way.

The User would still have to do something...

 

[Allen Nelson]

Poll: Truck: 1 - People: 0

OK, so the data that you're most intersted in collecting is WHEN the gas is took, and how much.

If you are taking a poll, I'll vote for the trucks. Use Rod's rationale ("Gas goes in trucks, not people"). This is also the most practical solution, as a truck is unlikely to lose it's RFID, while a person could forget his at home (which would not be terribly convenient for him to retrieve, from the boondocks that you describe).

 

[Pierre]

3 weeks ago I was at a convention in Orlando and on the road from the airport to the first real expressway, there is this small section where there are 3 tollbooths in about 5 miles ...

That, I beleive is a private expressway but I was AMAZED and SURPRISES when while I was trying to find some US money in my pocket, to see a car speeding toward a closed gate.

It must have been moving 50 MPH. It was going to smash the gate.

No $hit! The EZ Pass Opened the gate swiftly and re-closed it after the car had passed and again and again.

I said to the lady in the booth " They never smash into the gates". She looked at me as if I was from planet Mars

Close enough,... Canada !

Whats the gizzmo that can be read at that distance and at that speed?

I had seen EZ Pass in other places but the cars where slowing down and there where not gates to open.

 

[electrified3]

Now that clears some things up

If you know vehicle and fuel usage ie gallons or liters taken on, along with refill point, you now have many critical pieces of data, where the operator using it is not so important if trying to just determine usage and where. Have the station transmit the truck ID, fuel transmitted to vehicle, and vehicle ID and you have some pretty good power in developing your required data, after a short period you should develop your trend as to stations base requirements, specific truck usage, and be able to come up with a start point to your refill strategy. By continuous montoring you should be able to see variations in such trends and possible common elements to such changes, ie truck 3 operated in zone 1 gaz station 1 and burned 2x gallons over all other trucks, then in zone 2 same effect appeared, zone 3, etc........ You could compensate for that and try to determine a ball park refill rate and also have some side benefits of possibly determining which trucks should be priority for immediate service. Your trend and response can be modified as based on current readings and responses, and specific algorithms could be developed to do this for you and even identify problematic vehicles.

Note: Based on your explanation, operator effect is somewhat insignifficant, so go after the important reliable data.

 

[Pierre]

Re: Poll: Truck: 1 - People: 0

OK, so the data that you're most intersted in collecting is WHEN the gas is took, and how much.

That is correct.

 

[elevmike]

Pierre,

I just installed a system where the owner orderd 1500 keytags. They're about 6 bucks apeice. The tags have no battery and is hermetically sealed. The system can handle up to 65000 tags. The proxcimity detectors are connected to the master control unit via a wingard output. (4 wirs in a shealded cable).

The standard database includes each tag the tag holder, and tracks 10s of thousands of events. The controller is connected to an RS485 network or IP/E-net and can be accessed via internet or a LAN etc. You can get a two outputs per controller that would read from one prox detector. Place the prox detector on the gas nozzle, and mount a tag adjacent to the fill tube on the truck. You can setup the system so that the one prox detector on the nozzle will require both the truck, and personal keytags to start the pump. That way somebody cannot fill a 5 gallon can, and you will be able to track who's putting gas in what truck, and how much and when etc...

You dont have to re-invent the wheel here. There are plently of RFID manufactures that can provide a ready made system for you.

My personal faveroite is SecuraKey, but there are many many others. The primary use is for entry systems, but with a little imigination they have been adapted for applications like yours, and mine (elevators) without much effort.

 

[Fred Raud]

I would NOT however, under any circumstances, issue a key to a pancake-wearin' rabbit.

ive seen your chauffeur,,so i would retract that comment if i were you,,


geesh,,i cant remember what we use for our local fd,,for our entry system,,im sure as one mentioned earlier,,it wouldnt be hard to implement a system that tracks both the driver to the truck by the time usage,,if we can do so with a small town volunteer fire dept,,im sure there are many solutions,,

Fred Raud