Why is language quality so bad here?

[Elmohamady]

Hello JesperMP

Thank you for replying. I have read many of your thousands of messages. You are one of the very best engineers here and I have learned a lot from you. Thank you.

What do you mean by "bad"

I will give you an example that very often causes difficulty for me. This is the use of the word "it".
I have read many messages with a content like -
"I have a PLC connected to a drive over a network but it is not working because it is not providing the correct signal."
I have no clear idea what is not working or what is not providing the signal.
This is a very simple example but I know my English teachers would have said this is "bad". There is no clear link between the two its and the three things they could refer to.

I know that the English I write here is different to the English that I speak. When I talk to people everything is very more flexible. But I think that many writers write exactly the same way they speak. There is no difference to them. But here I can not see faces or ask for repeats to make sure I understand. So to be more efficient that is why I hope others will help by writing messages that are clear in the first time.

Thank you.

 

[JesperMP]

So it is not the typos, but that sentences are poorly fomulated that is the problem.
I aggree to that. It is irritating when a problem isnt clearly formulated in the 1st post - and you have to ask again and again just to get the problem itself specified.

But I think that you just have to accept that it is how it is. To try and educate all possible forum members on nettiquette is a lost cause.

All you can do if a post is way too poorly fomulated due to lazyness, is to ignore the poster. That I do every day.
On the other hand, if a poster does his best, but doesnt master perfect english, then I will help if only the technical part is clear enough.

 

[Timbert]

I think most of the writers here are from the United States where English is still the official language. I also think there are many examples where people write messages with really bad grammar, spelling and rules.

To clear up a couple of misconceptions, the United States has no "official" language. Also, just because someone is living in the United States doesn't mean they are native English language speakers. One in eight of all U.S. residents are foreign born and nearly one in five aren't native English speakers.

That said Internet forums tend not to be considered formal writing. Rather, people tend to post in an informal, conversational manner. As others have posted, most here have Engineering degrees, which unfortunately tend not to stress formal writing as part of the curriculum.

Based on the poor prose of most of the technical reports and specifications I see on a daily basis, engineers tend not to concern themselves with using the language properly. I don't have a major problem with not writing in a strictly formal manner. There can be lots of problems when someone is not writing in a precise manner. I've seen way too many discussions at engineering meetings simply because someone could misinterpret the written documentation. Generally, this is because it was not written clearly enough.

While I never got my English degree, I do have a degree in Liberal Arts in addition to my Engineering degree, so I may have a slightly skewed perspective. I take pride in writing clear communications just as I do writing clear and concise code or drawing a schematic that is as easy to follow as it is accurate.

Sitting on my desk are my Strunk and White's Elements of Style, my Chicago Manual of Style, and even a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage. More importantly, I actually use them.

 

[grs]

Since we're on the subject, can everyone please double check their use of the following before posting as it's really starting to get on my nerves:

there, they're, their

to, too, two

its, it's

your, you're

were, we're, whir, where, weir

kthxby

 

[bernie_carlton]

I think that many who post here are relatively new to PLCs. If something goes wrong they do not know what may be important to specify in the post. If they respond properly and in a timely manner to requests for further information then things progress well. Every now and then the poster only repeats exactly what was written in the first post. That's when it really gets frustrating. Thread titles like 'Help' don't inspire my attention either.

 

[Andy6]

I am not requesting that all writers everywhere in the world write in good quality English. That is too much for some people to achieve. I am just disappointed that native English speakers are not more proud of their language and want to use it properly.

I have overcome some confusion in your message. You wrote 'thier' twice. I know there is no word 'thier' in the English language.

I don't believe that it's an issue of pride about language, rather then the lifestyle people have become accustomed to. Everything these days is so "rush rush" that people have tended to leave spelling and grammar in the dust. Texting on cellphones is a prime example. Myself, I don't see how there can be pride in a language, everybody has one, it's rather the number of languages you can speak that I would be proud of.

I am sorry, I do tend to spell "their" incorrectly quite often. I should recall my childhood rhymes more often.

"I before E except after C and when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh"

 

[RussB]

The inability to express ones self in the written word is what keeps many good people from advancing in their job positions.
These forums are a great place to practice these skills, especially for you young people just coming into the business world. It is not as important for us old guys on our way out.
Learning proper punctuation is a good first step that so far computers are not very good at, it still takes proof reading.
Take this statement and move the comma around.
"The Panda eats shoots, and leaves."
OR
"The Panda eats, shoots and leaves."

 

[manmeetvirdi]

Hupp dis raxackuaxago quaxaritupp se faxad wholo?

 

[LadderLogic]

So can I end my sentences with prepositions?

Elmohamady, I beleive the best way to handle something you don't understand is to ask for clarification. It is a common knowledge that people tend to be less careful when communicating in their native language while being more concise and alert when using a foreign one. Case in point: I have read that members of International Space Station crews are encouraged to use the language which is foreign to them, that being Russian for the American austronauts and English for the Russian cosmonauts. The reason: more presise and thoughtful way of expression.

 

[LadderLogic]

Many years ago, when I was working as a maintenance electrician, we had a manager who was born in Ireland. Despite having lived many years in the US, he just hated when we used words "to tweak" and "tweaking"...

 

[jvdcande]

I have been reading this thread with growing interest. It's true some of the so-called native English speakers have a tendency to write poor English. We, the non-native English speakers, get the idea it is us who don't know English well enough, so we try harder to write correctly, something we don't accomplish every time. Being somewhat older, and involved in the field of training people I find this is not only a problem for English speaking people. I find that young Dutch speaking people make the same mistakes in their writing. Happily for us,not many people notice, because Dutch is not a widely known or used language. But the problem is here too, and it is of the same magnitude.

Myself, I don't see how there can be pride in a language, everybody has one, it's rather the number of languages you can speak that I would be proud of.

For that I'm glad to be Flemish (the Dutch speaking people in Belgium). We have a tendency to learn many languages. I'm poorly educated in that field: I only speak four and have some notions of three more. At least that's what they call poorly educated over here.

Bottom line is indeed as has been said before: if the message gets trough, and I would add "without too much trouble", that's important.

Kind regards,

 

[Operaghost]

Elmohamady,

I understand your concern. The problem has many dimensions. I think the main one is that public school graduates in the US do not know the English grammar rules. Our school system has effectively been funded and controled by the federal regime since about 1980. In that time, from my observations, the knowledge of the typical graduate has fallen to a very low level.

I don't want to address the politics of this statement but as I have a connection to the education system (sister teaches at elementary school and wife works at a college) I will state a few statistics for clarity. Because I hear them over and over!

Reading:
Average scores were 12 points higher than in 1971 for 9-year-olds and 4 points higher for 13-year-olds. The average reading score for 17-year-olds was not signicantly different from that in 1971.

Mathematics:
Average scores were 24 points higher than in 1973 for 9-year-olds and 15 points higher for 13-year-olds. The average mathematics score for 17-year-olds was not signicantly different from that in 1973.

Leaving the funding and political issues aside for the moment, the data shows that we have been steadily improving at educating our young children. However that progress is virtually eliminated by the time the student graduates high school.

All of the technological changes and improvements at our hands today and we are not doing any better at educating our young adults than we were 40 years ago.

[/Soapbox]

OG

 

[JHarbin]

Not to sound like a jerk here, but we're in engineering, I'm sure no one here has a degree in english studies. People here are taking thier own time to answer questions, and I don't think they would appreciate being told how to write thier responses. More often then not its the questions from middle eastern countries that I cannot understand, or that are too vague, lacking on basic information, or ask questions that can come straight from the manual.

I don't have an English degree, and I overuse commas, but I believe that being technical is no excuse for bad grammar and/or bad spelling. We all make typing errors, but it appears that many people who post here just don't care. I have to wonder whether they care enough to check their programming when they don't seem to care enough to check their spelling...

I'm over 50 and I know that makes me a old fogie, but I won't even read posts that are filled with text messaging shortcuts. If I'm going to take the time to try to help someone, the least he can do is take a few seconds to type out a clear question.

 

[Andy6]

I'm over 50 and I know that makes me a old fogie, but I won't even read posts that are filled with text messaging shortcuts. If I'm going to take the time to try to help someone, the least he can do is take a few seconds to type out a clear question.

I seem to be getting more and more emails lately, from bosses up the ladder that are containing text messaging slang. Now it's not really a problem for me, since I use the same slang myself, never in a company email mind you. But holy cow does it make them look unprofessional.

I've even gone so far as seeing it on resumes for technical positions.

 

[TurpoUrpo]

I think there is more a problem in over emphasizing grammar when languages are taught than "bad" grammar itself.

If you dont get, just ask for clarification, if you don't get it in real life (irl you ask (atleast I hope so).

So what's the problem here. The problem is in our won heads.

Many who I know dont like speaking english or other foreign languages becouse they fear they don't speak "right". I say so what? If you are understood its good enough. One wont improve on language without using language. Whining about grammar wont do any good for it.

ps. this is all for unofficial, like this forum.