Why pay for PLC programming software?

[Mani]

Try programming it with QBasic!
I really do not know if this is possible...but I too do not want to pay these ridiculous prices anymore.

 

[93lt1]

I have recently bought Siemens Simatic Step 7, and GE Cimplicity Machine Edition........

I want someone to show me how these were so much cheaper than any of the A/B PLC software?? If I look at the Original quotes they all rank somewhat in the same price range.

I dont see why every time this topic comes up, It's Bash AB time.

After about 3 years as a Controls Eng. at a somewhat large manufacturing facility, who specs AB, I have had to call AB support 1, maybe 2 times and had no problem.

Im sure that if anyone wanted to, we could pick apart ANY PLC mfg. and rip on them all day long, but what is the point?




......I feel a little better

 

[rsdoran]

FYI: Stepehen Luft is/was a representative for Enertron
http://www.entertron.com/

I have no problem with giving the link, may one day try the product. The software is free.

Other PLC makers offer free software
http://www.fujielectric.com/distr/elc.htm

 

[icky812]

I use Automation Direct for 99% of our jobs. Someone said that the software is clunky. This was probably because they didn't take any time with it. I also use RSLogix. I can program as just as fast in either software. Usability depends the user.

As far as price goes we spent $1200 US on RSLogix for the SLC/500. So far we have not received and upgrades to it.

We spent $495 for Automation Direct's software for all of their PLC's. 5 models. With free bug fixes until the next major version.

Hmmm... Which is the better buy? A $18,000 A/B system or the exact same thing for $6,000 from AD?

BTW, I am not plugging AD. But, they do have excellent customer service. And to me that goes a long way.

 

[93lt1]

GE Logic developer software (Cimplicity Machine Edition) $1760.00


Siemens Step 7 Basic V5.1 (not pro) $2137.50


Allen Bradley RSLogix 500 Standard (not starter) $1100.00

 

[Tom Jenkins]

I'm not sure it is possible to compare software prices one to one. For example, the Cimplicity Machine Edition may be closer in performance to RS Logix PLUS RSView PLUS Panelbuilder32, and Versa Pro against RSLogix500 may be the right comparison. Or maybe the ADC package should be compard to the AI Series, and so on and so on and ......

I price the projects, and I check the books on all my projects, and I can state without hesitation that an all A-B system is more expensive on total project cost than GE or AutomationDirect or Modicon. But, as someone pointed out, the PLC hardware and software cost is only a small part of the total project cost, so that isn't the determining factor for me. (Total project cost = hardware + software + engineering + programming + assembly + testing + start-up + warranty) I've repeated my A-B rants ad nauseum, and won't do it on this thread.

So, to answer Mr. Loft's question again, we pay for software because we have to. There are cheaper solutions out there, but some won't use them because of a comfort factor, and some won't because they get good local service, and some because the cost isn't a problem, and some because of compatibility with existing stuff, and some because they don't know any better.

If you want to take a bite out of the A-B apple with your product, Mr. Loft, you have to get in line. Every GE rep and Modicon rep and Cutler Hammer rep I talk to knows who they have to shoot at, and they know that just better pricing isn't getting them on target. A-B built their market share on good products and good service and a full line of automation equipment. Whether or not they can maintain their market share under Rockwell is the $64,000,000,000 question, and will be an interesting exercise in Darwinian economics.

 

[93lt1]

My comparison of GE software is for the Logic developer ONLY, No PC MMI, no MMI configuration, No Motion programming.

Sure, the package is capable of it, but each of these is a seperate liscensing fee........

 

[Stephen Luft]

my reply

I would first like to thank all that have replied with their honest answers. I am aware that when an integrator is required to use AB or anyone elseby customer spec., they have no alternative. The end customer usually pays for it anyways. What I am still confused about is the people that have a choice and still choose to buy a more expensive package when there are alternatives out there. So I guess that I should restate my original question - If YOU have the choice, why would you buy AB or any other controller that charges for their software when there are alternatives?

In response to some specific threads:

To Mr. Roach - Of course it costs money to develop anything - software or hardware, but if you are buying the hardware on a continuous basis, why be penalized up front? Why don't they (AB or anyone else) include the software cost and development in the cost of the controller? Ken if the debate is stale, how come it still gets a lot of response? One of the reasons is because nothing has been done about it. The larger companies of the world think they have you right where they want you when in the PLC world, you have 40+ alternatives, granted only one has the name Allen Bradley. If my question riles anyone, then there must be some merit to it.

To Mr. Doran - I need to correct you on one thing that you stated in your post. The company I work for isn't new to the market, we have been suppling controllers since 1978. In respect of the site, and its members, I respect Phil's rules using the site as a promotional tool for my company. I have emailed him ahead of time if I was going to post something that would be considered questionable to the members. The question I have asked, is one that has puzzled me for many years. In the past I have supplied specific responses where a members wanted opinions or information about controllers. I am more familiar with what my company offers.

To Mr. Bailey - Let me ask you this, if a company offered a bare bones programming package free, what would happen when you needed one of the functions in the Full featured package? If it were me, I would be frustrated because I would think it should have been in the bare bones package. Where would you draw the line as to what is included in a bare bones package and what isn't?

To Mr. Densing - I would have to disagree with your statement that PLC programming software is similar to Word or Excel. You don't need Word or Excel to run your computer. They are specific programs for specific applications. You can get other word processing or spreadsheet packages to work on your computer, but you can't get other software to program the PLC you purchase (not taking into account third part packages that would have to be purchased for a price as well) The PLC software is a necessity for the PLC, not an accessory.

To Mr. Nelson - I have no control over people's reactions, but it seems to be a hot topic if it affects people in the manner it does. Regarding your comment about misrepresenting myself, all you had to do was view my profile to find out who I am, granted, I didn't sign my post. It is no secret. I state who I am...no alias. Phil has allowed us to put links to our web sites. If I truly wanted to mislead anyone, I would have signed up under a different name. I have asked an honest question. My intention is/was to try to understand from people with experience in this industry, why? Phil's site has a wide range of subscribers from all over the world that can offer many different opinions and perspectives. This question has been on my mind for some time. When you speak to customers that expect to get the software for Free, while at the same time, many are paying over $1000 for software, promted me to finally ask the question to those who have to purchase it.

To 93It1 - All I have to say about those prices is ouch!!!

To Mr. Jenkins - AB may have built their market share on good service, but many people I have talked with have stated that their service/support is terrible. Not to mention that a customer in California told me that AB wanted $165.00 / hour to do programming, plus travel time (40 hours minimum)

To agree with most of you, AB is an easy target because they have the largest market share, but for a company that is the leader in market share, you hear more negative comments than positive.

I look forward to your additional comments.

God Bless.

 

[Operaghost]

Why Pay?

When was the last time anyone had anything good to say about Microsoft? Never? Hmm, then they must not have any market share.

OG

btw.... I think you meant 4 hour minimum, not 40. If you meant 40 then be advised, it is a 4 hour minimum.

 

[Stephen Luft]

to operaghost

My customer's specific words are "AB wants $165/hr. guaranteed. 1 week of work, nothing less. To me, 1 week is 40 hours.

Sorry about the errant post, hit post instead of reply.

 

[Rick Densing]

Mr. Luft,
If I am a secratary, I have to buy a word processor to do my job. It is a necessity. The fact that it is run on a computer is irreleveant.
My main argument is that PLC software is a productivity tool just like any other piece of software and should be treated as such. I have used some bad PLC software, and believe me, that $1100 I paid for RSLogix looked mighty good in the end.

I am certainly more inclined to listen to Tom's cost analysis argument and cold hard facts than chest thumping "I am not going to pay a lot for that software!"

I know this sounds like I am an AB cheerleader. I don't mean to be. I haven't used much else but them lately, and when I have, it has largely been a disappointment.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Mr. Luft,

I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from deliberately misinterpreting what I had to say. When I said bare-bones, I meant a packgae capable of programming the PLC including all of the functions in the instruction set. The bare-bones package should also be capable of monitoring an working PLC and uploading/downloading programs. Features to be left out would be things like names/nicknames, rung comments, capability of online or runtime edits, import/export files from one model to another.

On a personal note, you seemed rather defensive in your response. You certainly asked a legitimate question. Could your defensiveness be due to your track record on this forum. I can't remember any post from you that varied much from the general theme that "Entertron is the answer to your needs". You've been more subtle lately, but IM<HO, you push the definition of non-commercial to the extreme. Sort of like the people who advertise (excuse me, underwrite) on NPR and PBS.

 

[Operaghost]

Word Processor! I like that analogy. Some manufacturers offer cheaper word processors but maybe they are missing a couple keys. Just the "c" and the "p" keys.

"You won't miss them anyway. They are _onsonants, you don't need them be_ause we give you the all im_ortant vowels just like that $1,000 _er word _ro_essor _om_any but at half the _rice. And, we give you the _a_er when you buy our word _ro_essor."

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

OG

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Only $200K ?!?

That's what?, 2-3 programmers' salaries for only one year? And at the end of that year, you will have a full-featured, well-documented, bug-free product that runs on Win95, '98, NT, Win2K, XP, ME(?), under any service pack, and on any hardware? That's so user-friendly that you won't need tech support (or can justify having the customer pay it's full fare)


We do that now on our motion controller setup software and ,as Steve Luft company does, we give it away for free. I can justify this because it is also a marketing/sales tool, diagnostic tool, manual, etc. The PLC package would be grafted on to current setup tool. You can get it off the internet if you want to see. The cost is obviously borne by the person that buys the hardware. I learned long ago that it more acceptable to sell software/firmare in hardware units that people can touch and see.


What's the communication link? RS-232? Will a USB or PCMCIA card be able to handle it, too?

Ethernet or RS232. That is already worked out. USB is not industrial strength and has limited cable length. Ethernet is the future. Customers love Ethernet and just about every laptop has Ethernet now whereas serial ports are going away.


I think you'll be hard-presed to pull it off (depending on the size of that 61131 subset).

Yes. As I said we will only support IL,LD and SFC and only a subset of the SFC and LD will be supported. We will keep the subset small to support only what is needed. I think that there are too many instructions on most PLCs that rarely get used or are not needed. On-line changes and debugging and editing will be a high priority and the on line changes and compiling will be the biggest challenges.

 

[Stephen Luft]

To Mr. Bailey

I appologize if you feel that I deliberatly misinterpreted your comment. That was not my intention. I was asking, where do you cut off what is considered bare bones and what isn't. Using your example, nick names or comment areas could be very important to one person but not another. Nick names provide real world identification and comments provide notation to anyone who isn't familiar with the program.