Why pay for PLC programming software?

Thank You

To all that have posted replies to my original question about purchasing the software to program PLCs, I thank you for your responses. I enjoyed reading the various opinions and insights, even the ones that went on a tangent. They were all very interesting.
 
In reviewing many of your replies to my original question, a couple of additional questions have come to mind.

I am interested to learn more about the following:

1) When you purchase the PLC programming software (and your investing anywhere from $100 to $1500+) what do you expect to receive from the manufacturer?

2) What do you actually receive from the manufacturer?

3) Does what you purchase and what you receive meet, exceed or fall short with your expectations?

I am looking forward to your answers.

Thanks,

Stephen
 
How 'bout you answering a question for a change.

You've posted "Why do you pay for programming software?" on this and other boards, and gotten many replies.

They have usually been variations on:
  • Because we have to.
  • It's resonable to pay a resonable price for the development effort (whether the price should be rolled into the hardware or priced seperately is irrelevant. You still pay. TANSTAAFL.)
  • We shouldn't. Linux is Free. The internet is free. Everything should be free.

So my question for you is: What is wrong with your business model?

You offer inexpensive PLCs with a marketing gimmick of "Free Software". Yet people continue to flock to AB, Seimens, and GE. Those on a budget go to Automation Direct.

Have you figured out what you're doing wrong, yet?
 
Without too much thought:


PC based solutions (PLC's are becoming PC's and PC's are getting robust enough to be PLC's). With this, software and hardware will become cheaper. I see deterministic ethernet and PC's taking over. It just seems like a natural progression. When we are all writing and designing to a common architecture, there will be more competition and lower prices. 3rd party vendors can close the gaps between companies.


Tell me there error in my thinking
 
I've had very good support with Allen Bradley. They've sent me updated versions of rslogix 5/500 and linx as well as a masterdisk. All materials were sent 1 or 2 day through UPS free of charge. Every software related problem I have had (corrupted keys, resetting keys, configuration issues, patches, drivers) has been resolved quickly.
Their software is easy to use, and has encouraged me to want to learn more about programming plc's. It has allowed me to do my job more efficiently, and with better productivity.
They may be expensive, but you get what you pay for.



Regards,
Russ
 
I have mix emotion on this fellow. Like Allen, I shure am curious has to the point this salesman wants to accomplish. Ho, did I call mister Luft something bad?

How should I call somebody who is suppose to have been in and around this industries for ho, so many years and still has to rely on cheap publicity gimiks. Cause this is what I thinck it is.

Like your software and this present post, this thread is free, and it's about what it's worth. Niet!

You want to be more than a cheap salesman Stephen. Tell us more.

How much time was spent on development of your software?
Who ended up deciding to give it away with the hardware, and what was the deciding factor?
Was there much discussion on that point then?
What amount. in an hardware piece is directly related to your software?
Whats your total sales number for 2001?
How much of this would be lost if you where to sell this software at 50$, 100$, 200$, 300$?
 
In my opinion the worst thing you could do is install a non-popular component in a plant when you could install a popular one. You see I'm a great fan of modularity and interchangeability. With this as one of my core beliefs I find it very important to use one of the most popular brands of PLC's throughout your whole plant. After all the purpose of a plant is to get as large of a return on investment for it's owners or shareholders. For this reason the only way I would install something other than one of the top sellers is the price was right and I believed that they were soon to become the leader. The issue with leadership is the ability to have good support from within. In my experience machines that are not well understood are usually the first to die, that is because "curiosity can kill the machine". Anyways Mr. Luft, have you considered sending your resume to Allen Bradley?
 
It is fair enough that I answer the questions you have asked.

In answer to your questions:

How much time was spent on development of your software?

On our new 32 bit software, we have spent approximately 8 months in development and 2 months in testing before releasing it. We will be adding features and enhancing existing features as we proceed. Approximately, 3-5% of sales have been invested in our new software development.

Who ended up deciding to give it away with the hardware, and what was the deciding factor?

The decision to offer the software Free of charge was a mutual decision. The deciding factor was that no one else was doing it.

Was there much discussion on that point then?

There wasn’t much discussion about it because we were all in agreement.

What amount. in an hardware piece is directly related to your software?
Whats your total sales number for 2001?
How much of this would be lost if you where to sell this software at 50$, 100$, 200$, 300$?

These questions I will not answer because they relate to non published company information. As a private company, we do not disclose financial information. It would be the same as me asking you how much you make per year.

First, you should probably understand what our business model is about.

Entertron is a manufacturer who's target is the small to medium sized OEM. Our focus is to provide solutions while at the same time providing value and protection for the OEM's application. Save our customers time and money, while at the same time increase their revenue potential.

How does Entertron do this?

1) We provide a longer warranty - 3 years for relay outputs and 5 years for solid state

2) We don't charge for every little thing, i.e. manuals

3) We don't charge for support

4) We don't charge for Software, upgrades or bug fixes

5) We provide higher output ratings, thus eliminating additional components, such as additional relays or fusing (depending on the controller you use). Our relay outputs are 7 amps for the Smart-PAK PLUS and 8 amps for the SK1600-RIC (up to 16 without any restrictions out of 24). Our triac rating is 2 amp continuos and 10 amp inrush; transistor rating is 2 amp contiguous and 8 amp inrush. Our solid state design is individually fused and has been proven over its 20+ year history.

6) One CD for everything.

7) We give the OEM control over their program. Only one file resides in our controllers - that is the hex file. If the OEM wants to give the program, that is their option. Most PLCs have the ladder file stored in the PLC. Our customers consider this to be an advantage. Not all would consider this an advantage, it would depend on your perspective (end user probably not, systems integrator - it would depend)

8) When you contact the factory with a question, you do not get voice mail. You will speak with someone in technical support. Will you always get an answer when you call - it will depend on your question. If you call at lunch, they will call you back when they return. If you call after 5pm eastern time, you will be able to leave a message. You do not have to worry if your maintenance contract is up to date or if your software version is covered for support.

9) We will review programs at no cost to our customers. If you need help with your program that you have developed and you are uncertain as to what the problem might be or you just want us to review it, we do. I don't know what other manufacturers do, but this is probably done through their distributors.

10) Should you require a modification to a standard PLC - you will likely get the answer "no" from the other manufacturers (unless there is enormous volume involved). Why? Because the larger manufacturers produce thousands of one product at a time, usually over seas. They have no means to make changes once they arrive in the US. We are an American manufacturer. All of our ePLCs are manufactured here. Whether it is 1 pc or 1000 pieces. We have the ability to take a controller out of stock and make modifications to it.

Entertron is not the least expensive, nor the most expensive PLC on the market. Our product focus is in the Small to Micro end of the market. (up to 128 I/O)

I wouldn't say that our model is flawed. Allen Bradley and others have done a good job at marketing their name to the End User. For many of the larger OEMs, they are dictated to, as to what PLC is to be used. In talking with many people, asking, why did you go with AB? The answer I receive most is that our customers want AB. It is mostly for the name.

Automation Direct has gone head to head with AB, based on price and has taken some share away from them. Automation Direct has a successful model, primarily based on pricing, but in the mean time their business model has lowered pricing while at the same time hurt many distributors. The distributor provides a valuable service to their customers. When people see the pricing from Automation Direct (who has no distributors or reps and just recently added a few integrators) they still expect their distributor to be able to compete with pricing, while providing the same services that Automation Direct doesn’t. As stated several times, there is a cost associated with service. Do you want to be successful at the expense of others or based on your own merit?

Both have used a lot of advertising dollars to get where they are. We are not their size nor do we want to be. We don't want the many layers of cost that are associated. We would lose our flexibility.

We have many OEM customers and are working on new applications every day. We want our customers to be successful. If they are successful, then we will be successful. We want to make their experience as hassle free as possible. Providing things such as Free programming software is only one way

We are addressing an area where companies are frustrated with the way larger PLC companies do business. We are also providing companies an alternative to designing their own controllers. Giving the OEM a solution they can call their own, without spending thousands of dollars in design costs, hundreds of man hours and months of development for their own controller.

The intent of my original question and subsequent follow up, is simply research. To find out from a wide spectrum of users, integrators and OEMs what they think, in order for us to better serve both new and existing customers.

Included, for some of you who would like to know more about marketing is an article link to Selling Power on "How to Use Tough Times to Boost Sales and Increase Market Share" http://www.sellingpower.com/article/display.asp?aid=SP2662776&fromFriend=TRUE

Thank you for taking the time to write. I hope this has answered your questions.

God Bless,

Stephen
 
I dunno, I guess this is as relevant a topic as any that should be on a plc site. Stephen is an owner/salesman (haven't determined or been told which) of a company that manufactures PLC and caters to the OEM. What better place to get feedback?

Somewhere in the past he (like me) has "antaganized people" in some way. It happens when dealing with people.

Yes he wants to market his product but has also offered assistance at times on ways to do things (non brand specific type, his or others), just concepts that should cross over.

Personally (my opinion and mine only) he/his company has/is losing a large market by being OEM specific. I probably wont ever buy anything from ENTERTRON for that reason.

At the same time I can see where an OEM could maybe profit from dealing with his company. They offer viable solutions with what seems earnest capabilities to fulfill an OEM needs at competitive pricing. They arent a newbie to the PLC industry, they have been at it as long as just about anyone.

Stephen, I am going to direct this to you/your company. In the past dealing with the major players (AB, Siemens, GE etc) I/we have obtained items to play with (sometimes free, sometimes at a very low cost). I doubt I can play in the field you need/want, I just work for a small international company and am an end user BUT if there was a way to provide some form of "demo" equipment it would be a good thing for some of us.

Personally I would like to try your product, it amazes me as long as I have been in this business (and your company has been )I have never seen your products. Alas I have not the capability to just order from someone BUT can (if I know the product) make recommendations that will be used...alas I am an end user tho, we only use a few hundred small plc's at my plant. I can and do retrofit the older machines with newer models when needed (which is regular) but have problems with purchasing, pricing, and support of some of the major players of plc's.

Anyway while you are hanging out on this site make more effort to assist with the generic plc questions, who knows what the future may bring.
 
2 Cents

Development costs are excessive... with out it you have something like Automax. It is Free with the hardware, very powerful but very combersome. You will not see this software get any better

Rslogix 5 is not a big market item any longer. But, it remains robust, expensive and available. As a company that is in bed with Microsoft (RS) and as OS change and are altered, so does the operating software like Rslogix 5. You HAVE to pay for this. Look at the last 2 updates for Rslogix 5, have you noticed any obvious change? No, but they were needed.

I think that (THINK) Rockwell is stabbing their selves in the back with the renewal costs. The tech support is usually losy but the updates are neccesary. They (Rockwell) came out with a new plan to include Drives, MMI, Software ect.. all in one price. It is reduced but still the costs are excessive. I paid almost $8,000 for support and renewal.

I would pay for the software as I do now... I would pay the cost up front. The renewal fee is what I think is rediculously high and frankly, I won't pay it next year! I will cross the bridge of updates when it becomes a problem. But right now, I think with XP being my primary OS, I should be good for a few years.


BUT MAN!!! Did this ever start a thread and a half!!!! hahahaha
 
One thing to remember.

MAC vs PC.

IF MAC would have been sooooo easy to clone and copy like the PCs and there OS used to be...

Don't ya thinck they would have been in the below 5% market shares like they are today?

For me, its the same thing with PLC software.

The only value of information is when you share it. Keep it locked and protected and it has no value.

So yes, make us pay for it but let us cheat a little before we commit.


:p :p :p :p :p :
 
There were some nice changes in the last two updates of RSLogix5

RSVIEWRULZ said:
Look at the last 2 updates for Rslogix 5, have you noticed any obvious change? No, but they were needed.

Yes....
RSLogix5 V5.50 gave the ability to click the "on rung" cross-reference and go to that location without having to search.

RSLogix5 V6.00 gave the ability to "open" the ladder files in the project tree and view/go to the page titles.

I do see your point. Usually there are no visible changes. I was amazed that there were actually two very helpful changes in the last two releases of RSLogix5/500.

1rsl5.gif
 
promotion

How can you succesfully promote your product without knowing your competition?

This is a quote by Mr.Luft from a thread called "plc"


Not being familiar with other manufacturer's programming software, I don't know if they provide this information when you compile. Other manufacturers like Mitsubishi tell you the number of steps available, and still others tell you the ...

I would think that knowing your competition inside and out is a must!

AB's programming software is worth every penny.
Price / performance ratio justifies the steep price.
No offense Mr. Luft but Entertron's ladder programming is stuck in the 1980's mode.
 

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