WinCC Flexible 'disable operation' possible ?

[userxyz]

Hmm

I agree now with the interlocking in PLC. But I do have a difficulty now because of what the customer want. When they set a machine in manual mode, it must stop it's motors in cascade. This stopping is an automatic process and is written in S7-Graph. I have a Start-Graph and a Stop-Graph for each machine. When selecting manual mode, then the machine must stop first in cascade before the manual mode is really active. When Manual is active, then the actions can be done.

Hi Jesper,

As an honest person I want to tell you that you're right.
The machine is a group of several machines that starts in cascade and stops in cascade. I did this in S7-Graph. I messed up by forcing myself to use S7-Graph for the automatic mode and not write any manual logic.
I rewrote the manual part with interlocking in the PLC. More logical situation.

You're reply made me think the last days and I now understand why you said to rewrite it. The interlocking may not be done in the HMI offcourse, it's nasty.

Sorry !!

 

[Mrslipmat]

Hey, at least your honest enough to apologise to somebody who has a wealth of knowledge and was in his own way trying to help you, not many people would stand up on a public forum and appologise like you did. I take my hat off to you Sir.

 

[JesperMP]

hi jesper,

as an honest person i want to tell you that you're right.
The machine is a group of several machines that starts in cascade and stops in cascade. I did this in s7-graph. I messed up by forcing myself to use s7-graph for the automatic mode and not write any manual logic.
I rewrote the manual part with interlocking in the plc. More logical situation.

You're reply made me think the last days and i now understand why you said to rewrite it. The interlocking may not be done in the hmi offcourse, it's nasty.

Sorry !!

ok.

 

[userxyz]

He was right, and I was wrong.
And it's true, Jesper has a lot more experience, I allready learned a lot from him on this forum.

Kind regards,
Combo

Hey, at least your honest enough to apologise to somebody who has a wealth of knowledge and was in his own way trying to help you, not many people would stand up on a public forum and appologise like you did. I take my hat off to you Sir.

 

[userxyz]

Fc

I've made a commands DB. These commands (MANUAL_REQUEST) are connected on IN parameters of my written FC. The Output is connected to an IN/OUT parameter (OUTPUT).

      A     #MANUAL_REQUEST
      A     #MANUAL_MODE
      JCN   end
      A     #OUTPUT
      JCN   next
      R     #OUTPUT
      JU    end
next: AN    #OUTPUT
      S     #OUTPUT
end:  SET   
      R     #MANUAL_REQUEST
      SET   
      SAVE

This way the interlock is the MANUAL_MODE IN parameter. The MANUAL_REQUEST is a SETBIT in WinCC Flexible. This works and I agree is better then using Flexible animations. When adding an HMI, the logic remains.


I'm not very happy with my cascade logic. I've written it in Graph, but I'm not very sure and happy if I went the right way with it.

For example, the stopping graph:



After this stopsequence did it's work, all motors are resetted. Depending on the MANUAL_MODE they can be inverted (started/stopped). There is not written to the motorbits in MODE_AUTO after the graph. In LAD or STL it could be written in a way that the RESETS do RESET every cycle... Should I leave the Graphs and rewrite it in LAD or STL ? I did this in Graph because it's a beauty to work with.

Kind regards,
Combo

I am surprised that you cannot see it yourself.
You are trying to make a solution in Flexible, but you cannot find a simple way. Then you suggest "scripts". Whenever someone just mindlessly suggest to use scripts for everything, I cringe.

Any interlocking shouldnt be dependant on the HMI.

Here is what you should do:
Use a "setbit" funcation on the HMI button.
In the PLC, evaluate the bit via a oneshot. If the oneshot fires, set an impulse bit.
Reset the HMI bit.
Evaluate the impulse bit in the PLC program and perform the toggling of the output bit, but interlock it with whichever conditions that should disallow the button function to activate.
That is the bare minimum.

If you want to add eye-candy, you can change for example the foreground color of the button to grey, when the interlocks are blocking the button function.

 

[cjd1965]

Hi
Why dont you have a graph for auto and another for manual (or maybe extra steps so say steps 1-10 is auto and 11-20 is manual.)

Then, if an auto step is ON, reset your manual bits... and vice versa.

What about using setbitwhilekeypressed for your command keys? This will reset when released.

 

[userxyz]

Oper zero

You gave me an idea...
I'm gonna change my graphs so that the bits are ALL SETTED in the last startup step and ALL RESETED in the last stopping step.

To be able to manual manipulate, I will use OpZero and OpZerod from the graph parameters to zero the operands of the graphs when manual mode is selected and all is shutted down.

SetWhilePressed... Yeah, also tought about that one... change all the Setbit to SetWhilePressed... would be better ... ?

Hi
Why dont you have a graph for auto and another for manual (or maybe extra steps so say steps 1-10 is auto and 11-20 is manual.)

Then, if an auto step is ON, reset your manual bits... and vice versa.

What about using setbitwhilekeypressed for your command keys? This will reset when released.

 

[cjd1965]

Hi ..whats best is really what works, and is easy to debug in the future. If the HMI buttons are used to transition a step then you can use the setbitwhilekeypressed and not wory about the reset. I personally dont like set/resets but i agree they do have their place.

I see you love to use graph.I would be interested in a example of a small graph with multiple sequences , particulary a main one and 2 or 3 sub ones. Do you know of any decent examples?

 

[KalleOlsen]

@cjd
Have you never experienced that SetWhilePressed has failed to reset? I have of some reason an aversion against that command - don't remember why (I'll ask mr. Alzheimer)

.

Kalle

Edit: OK, new post while I was writing - I interpret it as you have seen it also.

Edit2: I always only set bits in the HMI and they're read and reset in my PLC code.

 

[cjd1965]

@cjd
Have you never experienced that SetWhilePressed has failed to reset? I have of some reason an aversion against that command - don't remember why (I'll ask mr. Alzheimer)

.

Kalle

Hi I guess the old fashioned method I used circa 15 yrs ago of resetting all the HMI command bits at the start of the code then mapping them in again would fix that issue. Interesting point though Kalle. Mr Alzheimer is a freind of mine also.

 

[userxyz]

hmm

Okay. But, SetBit, is this the way to go ? What if the panel for some reason has no connection, and then the profibusconnection re-establish... can it happen that all SETS that where setted while no-connection will SET ? If that's the case, then this looks like a dangerous situation to me...

@cjd
Have you never experienced that SetWhilePressed has failed to reset? I have of some reason an aversion against that command - don't remember why (I'll ask mr. Alzheimer)

.

Kalle

Edit: OK, new post while I was writing - I interpret it as you have seen it also.

Edit2: I always only set bits in the HMI and they're read and reset in my PLC code.

 

[cjd1965]

Combo ....
Line 1 ... reset command bits say DB.Command.bits

Line 2 ... move DB.HMI.Buttons into DB.Command.bits

Line 3 ... if DB.Command,bit[1] = 1 the drink a beer, whatever...

this means the PLC will always reset all the hmi buttons but any active buttons will be turned back on again in the same scan

If anyrhing is considered as SAFETY then of course an HMI button alone is ridiculous and safety devices will be required

finally remember its the weekend so try and chill out a bit

 

[userxyz]

ok

In the case of SetWhilePressed then ?

Combo ....
Line 1 ... reset command bits say DB.Command.bits

Line 2 ... move DB.HMI.Buttons into DB.Command.bits

Line 3 ... if DB.Command,bit[1] = 1 the drink a beer, whatever...

this means the PLC will always reset all the hmi buttons but any active buttons will be turned back on again in the same scan

If anyrhing is considered as SAFETY then of course an HMI button alone is ridiculous and safety devices will be required

finally remember its the weekend so try and chill out a bit

 

[userxyz]

decent

decent examples

https://www.yousendit.com/download/UFh0UXVyTERGR0UwTVE9PQ

project.zip can be downloaded.
It contains a movie of a prototype machine + the Simatic project. The whole machine is controlled by S7-Graph and Pdiag.
Opzero and Opzeroed can also be found in the program.

Hope you can use it,

Kind regards,
Combo

Hi ..whats best is really what works, and is easy to debug in the future. If the HMI buttons are used to transition a step then you can use the setbitwhilekeypressed and not wory about the reset. I personally dont like set/resets but i agree they do have their place.

I see you love to use graph.I would be interested in a example of a small graph with multiple sequences , particulary a main one and 2 or 3 sub ones. Do you know of any decent examples?

 

[cjd1965]

Yes. setbitwhilekeypressed, Kalle reports that sometimes it does reset when you release the key so always reset in plc then map the key that way it wont matter and if the hmi comms fails the key press is reset in the PLC.

Thanks for the example getting it now