Information Systems

There seems to be a thought where I work that the IS department should oversee the Control and Programming of the PLC's processes as well as the overseeing the Interface of all the systems as well as the Touch screen systems.

No one in the department has Machine Code experience but the Director believes that a few hours of hands on experience is all that is needed. "I can't see what is so difficult", she said. This hands on comment came after stating a few hours of training is all that is neeed and anyone in her department can handle this.

I personlly have an obvious problem with this but I was wondering what any other thoughts might be? Anyone have any input? Articles to support thoughts? Personal experience?

Any input is welcomed and appriciated!

Thanks

That is the train of thought I used to run into. People outside of the PLC world see what we do as "Magic". We sit down at a keyboard click around here and there and VOILA, it's up and running better than before. It looks simple. They don't realize all the work that wen into those few keystrokes, or it was only a few keystrokes because you know the process like the back of your hand. It is hard to make outsiders realize that there is more to it than "a couple of hours of hands on and we'll be all set". One mistake on a PLC could cost thousands of dollars of damage, not to mention the production lost. One mistake in IT and you may be printing on the printer down the hall instead of the one beside your desk!

The only way to make them understand is by showing. You would have to get hold of the IT people whne you are making a "simple" change and show them how much goes into it. Maybe then they will realize.

I don't know if that helps.

I am actually registere!. My mind goes to mush every now and then and I forget my logon!

Sorry.

One mistake on a PLC could cost thousands of dollars of damage, not to mention the production lost.

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Lets not forget loss of limb or maybe life.

Your boss is right as far as her thought process went: "Any" programmer that can write a program in C++ or assembly can learn to write a program in ladder logic in a few hours.

Writing the program code is the easy part of what a control system programmer does. Determining the logic the PLC has to execute is a lot more complex. It requires understanding of the PLCs and programming, but even more significantly, it requires understanding of the mechanical aspects of the machine, the process being controlled, the electircal signals from 4,160 VAC to 5 VDC being used to run the process and interface with the PLC, various regulatory codes (like the NEC - National Electric Code), the human operator's needs, and on and on.

As others have pointed out, with an IT application a major problem results in the Blue Screen of Death and a re-boot. In our job a major problem kills someone.

The fact that the IT manager feels the job is simple proves she doesn't have the knowledge base required to do the job. If she wants to consolidate or do a little empire building, have her hire qualified control system designers and add them to her department. For God's sake, don't let her take the kid that's been setting up the company web page and turn him loose on programming a control system!

No one in the department has Machine Code experience but the Director believes that a few hours of hands on experience is all that is needed. "I can't see what is so difficult", she said. This hands on comment came after stating a few hours of training is all that is neeed and anyone in her department can handle this.

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Seen with my personnal experience, this is a very dangerous, misapplied perception of industrial automation. The consequences of interference at the process level can be costly. It takes years of training and practice to understand and control a plant or a production machine adequately, and there is no easy way about it.

I work for a systems integrator, specializing in PLCs and industrial automation; we have people of very different backgrounds working together to maintain and implement automation projects. We have technicians, engineers, programmers and IT specialists; we need all these varied inputs to obtain fast and reliable results. But no one in our company would presume that the other's knowledge is frivolous or unnecessary. We respect what the others know, and recognize their experience and training. We have had individuals who attempted to bypass others in a project; they are no longer with us, because their mistakes (generally based on sensible assumptions) cost the company much effort and cost to untagle.

I would suggest, as friendly advice, that the Director try her own hand at "a few hours of training" and then connect and implement modifications. Let her put her own money on the line before she has the whole company attempt something so dangerous. She just might learn something in the process.

I have no interest in your company or its operations, or in your internal power struggles. Please do not hesitate to present my opinion (and those of others in this forum) to the people involved in this decision. You can get IT and process personnel to work together for the production to remain stable; any attempt to subordinate onre faction to another will probably reasult in lower production rates or other anathema.
Hope this helps,
Daniel Chartier

This is the problem.......

The biggest problem I see is that there is no certification process for Automation Techs, PLC/HMI programmers, or whatever you want to call them. At the sawmill I work at, a few of our bosses would have anyone doing anything if it wasn't for certification laws and union rules. Sometimes this seems inefficient, but it it reliable and safe.

The sooner a PLC programmer is required to have a certain Industrial Automation education the better. The experienced people could be grandfathered in using testing, and anyone programming would have to be certified. This is what keeps every other profession safe and reliable. It also helps the professional with stability and portability in the job market.

I think you will find that if you hand over the PLC and HMI tasks to the IS department, they will prove their inability in no time.

My take

I came from the VB and production world and those damn IS/IT/BIT/MIS/MIT/IST guys were a bunch of @#. Now I am in that dept. Doe! IT guys look at things differently than us. I think today I will be a PLC programmer who has written several RSView apps. They can do what PLC programmers can do if trained however they are not. If you want to train a C or VB person to write Ladder you need to change some of the thought processes. On the other hand not having PLC and control projects shared by engineering and IT is about like calling gramps to come install a new relay control rack (get it old and outdated).

Sorry RSViewRulz IT should be part of PLC and your touch screens because 5 years from now you are going to part of their SQL database team. or not.

Stupidity is one evenly distributed human characteristic. One can always count on it.

One characteristic that is not evenly distributed is humility. The absolute knowledge that I do not know everything and that in time I can learn almost anything IF this time is given to me.

Your IT boss, she's exact when she says that a little trainning can put her people in a situation where they can do your job. Just like if you where to hire someone straight out of school and put himn/her on the staff of programmers.

The question is money!

How much costs an arm, a leg ... a life.
Then ... how much costs downtime.

Lets face it, we are no Nobel prize winners. We are just programming black boxes...

Just don't put yourself in a position where you will have to "coach" her personnel. You will end-up will the responsability for failure but they will have all the "fame" for any virtual succes they can show.

Logic is only logic. Resistance is futile.

Ask yourself this question. "Do I want to work for an idiot?"

I run into this situation all the time. My answer is always the same. You want it, you have it. Then I absolutly refuse to touch any code which was altered by a bozzo. .. and yes, I tripple my prices.

It's like playing chess

I can teach you all the rules of the chess in about 15 minutes but
does that mean that you know how to play a good game?

ALL these are very good points! I really appriciate the input.

blindfold this lady and let her drive a forklift truck.

I occasionally teach a basic ladder logic course. A few years ago, one of our customers had a rather large training budget and decided to get as many people as possible trained on PLCs. This included people from the IT department, who probably looked at it as an opportunity to pad their resumes with an additional language.

Early in the course, I talk about the types of signals that get interfaced to PLCs. At a break, one of the IT guys came up to me and said, "You're going to have to slow down a little. I can understand the programming part of this stuff, but when you talk about relays and proximity switches and solenoid valves and motor starters and stuff like that, you're getting way ahead of me".

My suggestion to you is to ask the IT manager how many of her people can identify the components that make up an automation system. You could take a quick inventory of what you use in your facility and challenge the IT staff to point the various components out to you during a shop floor tour.

Here's my take on it:

Would you go to a Dentist to have Heart Surgery? ☯

And I'm not putting down the IT department in any way shape or form, it's just a different profession. While some parts of a profession overlap, like physics and chemistry, there are many differences and apparently the Director doesn't see or appreciate this. I don't see anything wrong with IT people having some involvement with the information portions of your process, if for example you are using SQL databases or stuff like that, but before they take control of your production machinery they should know what they're getting into.

Take Steve's suggestion and quiz her on all the equipment components. Give her a tour and let her see the different sensors and motors and wiring that she'll need to know. If you're lucky you can get them to work on the floor for awhile and do some troubleshooting.

Lay off the IT guys

IT should oversee PLC and like items. These folks aren’t idiots who would go out and tackle a from scratch robotic arm program. They ”oversee” the hardware (not control hardware but PC hardware) very well because that is what they do. With a little assistance they can understand the basics and help when it comes to hardware and you can’t beat’em for work arounds when it comes to Data Acquisition. Try asking your PLC function block programmer to get a report together from a SLC5/04 on DH+ and some CompactLogix on Ethernet into a report via MS SQL and while your at it automatically e-mail that to these guys oh and that can be seen on our AS/400 right. They typically know their limitations and will say when they are in over their heads. As for anyone but a person that spent time with machinery writing new logic that’s ludicrous you could kill someone!