A Philosophical Question - Password Protection
- Thread starter Bob A.
- Start date
rstech
Member
I don't password protect my programs and I advertise that fact to my customers. I actually use it as a selling point versus those companies that do use password protection. Same with my electrical drawings. They can open them, copy them, do whatever they like with them.
I think the key is to be upfront with your customer about it so there are no suprises in the end. Whether you protect your programs or not I don't think is an ethical question. Its a question of what is being purchased. In my case, my customers are not just purchasing the control system, they are also purchasing the engineering behind it (i.e. programs and drawings). I state this in my quote. For other companies, that may not be for sale.
I've heard the reasoning of "safety concerns" before but I'd be a lot more concerned about someone rewiring my safety relay then changing my PLC logic. Protecting my job with increased service calls; well to each their own but I'd rather be working on another project than a service call. If I can give my customer the tools they need to service their own equipment then we're both further ahead. I like sleeping at 3AM.
Suprising though, I've never had a customer copy one of my programs to build their own 2nd machine. I also still get called for a fair number of service calls. So again, I think as long as you make it clear to your customer what they are buying then there is no problem whichever way you go. Personally I feel comfortable providing the logic. My 2 cents!
I think the key is to be upfront with your customer about it so there are no suprises in the end. Whether you protect your programs or not I don't think is an ethical question. Its a question of what is being purchased. In my case, my customers are not just purchasing the control system, they are also purchasing the engineering behind it (i.e. programs and drawings). I state this in my quote. For other companies, that may not be for sale.
I've heard the reasoning of "safety concerns" before but I'd be a lot more concerned about someone rewiring my safety relay then changing my PLC logic. Protecting my job with increased service calls; well to each their own but I'd rather be working on another project than a service call. If I can give my customer the tools they need to service their own equipment then we're both further ahead. I like sleeping at 3AM.
Suprising though, I've never had a customer copy one of my programs to build their own 2nd machine. I also still get called for a fair number of service calls. So again, I think as long as you make it clear to your customer what they are buying then there is no problem whichever way you go. Personally I feel comfortable providing the logic. My 2 cents!
Rob - Do you keep a printed/read only hard copy of your logic for liability purposes?
What if you had some proprietary technique that you wanted to sell and reuse as a "trade secret"? To me this makes less sense with PLC logic, more with compiled PC code. It's the "other" argument for password protection.
In my experience in the field the latter is arrogant and unjustified. Engineers/Integrators rarely admire the last guys old work that they're there to replace - it's usually less than 100% intelligible and riding on old technology. The new programmer will likely review what the old application did, but come up with most of the logic on his own. My $.02.
For the record, I'm a fan of open code for this kind of work. I think that obfuscating/protecting your code only makes sense if you're in the business of writing reusable software. In that case you support it (typically with free updates) and provide sufficient user configuration space. That's a very different situation than locking down a PLC program from views/edits.
What if you had some proprietary technique that you wanted to sell and reuse as a "trade secret"? To me this makes less sense with PLC logic, more with compiled PC code. It's the "other" argument for password protection.
In my experience in the field the latter is arrogant and unjustified. Engineers/Integrators rarely admire the last guys old work that they're there to replace - it's usually less than 100% intelligible and riding on old technology. The new programmer will likely review what the old application did, but come up with most of the logic on his own. My $.02.
For the record, I'm a fan of open code for this kind of work. I think that obfuscating/protecting your code only makes sense if you're in the business of writing reusable software. In that case you support it (typically with free updates) and provide sufficient user configuration space. That's a very different situation than locking down a PLC program from views/edits.
I have just been in discussions regarding a new machine being supplied into the plant where I am currently working. The vendor (worldwide machine supplier) has said they are continuously optimising the machine program and issue FREE yearly upgrades, plus the software and motion package is supplied with full source code etc.
I can see the safety/liability aspect so perhaps it would be better if the PLC manufacturers came up with a digital 'key switch/lock' so that the PLC could only be used in 'Monitor Mode' while inside the liability period.
I have done a lot of work in the Pharma industry and any software change has to be hugely documented so maybe only using suitably trained and experience people to hook up to the PLC is really the best solution
Sorry, ranted on a bit........Cheers
I can see the safety/liability aspect so perhaps it would be better if the PLC manufacturers came up with a digital 'key switch/lock' so that the PLC could only be used in 'Monitor Mode' while inside the liability period.
I have done a lot of work in the Pharma industry and any software change has to be hugely documented so maybe only using suitably trained and experience people to hook up to the PLC is really the best solution
Sorry, ranted on a bit........Cheers
TimWilborne
Lifetime Supporting Member
Passwords blow chuncks...period. I have never seen a company "protect their property" with a password. Most of the time, it is more gear towards the customer not being able to service his own equipment. Unfortunately I'm seeing more and more of this from low end equipment builders. Reverse Engineering (Fixing) these programs is a service I offer that seems to continue to grow.
I did see a situation where the customer had safety concerns about a particular sequence of his program and I liked his solution.
Instead of password protecting the entire 13 slot SLC program, he added a Micrologix controller just to do that small part of the logic. 4 inputs, 3 outputs. Basic sequence that is pretty easy to follow without going having to go online, yet you can diagnose the rest of the machine without the hassle of passwords. Even then, I have the password, but the equipment builder requested that I not give it to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has a laptop there.
I did see a situation where the customer had safety concerns about a particular sequence of his program and I liked his solution.
Instead of password protecting the entire 13 slot SLC program, he added a Micrologix controller just to do that small part of the logic. 4 inputs, 3 outputs. Basic sequence that is pretty easy to follow without going having to go online, yet you can diagnose the rest of the machine without the hassle of passwords. Even then, I have the password, but the equipment builder requested that I not give it to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has a laptop there.
rstech
Member
Yes, I always keep an electronic copy of the original.surferb said:
I don't have any logic that would be classified this way. One of my selling points to my customers is no "black box" hardware or software. I want my customers to be able to service their own equipment. I try to keep my programs as simple as possible so even an inexperienced maintenance person can follow my logic. I have found this to be good business that gets me lots of repeat customers. I'm typically an open book to my customers, no secrets. Ask me a question and I'll give an honest answer. Want to know how to do something? I'll gladly tell you.surferb said:
bernie_carlton
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
When you purchased your last PLC did you receive a complete annotated copy of the System Program in the CPU? If not did you complain?
maintenanceman38
Member
Does the law have a time limit?
Bob I agree with you 100%. A Sprinkler system, No matter how complicated it is, Is not a machine. Nobody can be hurt and there should be no reason that you could not edit their program. If you think about it, All actions happen when nobody is there. Except you because there is a problem. And what what you described earlier, A VFD,(Varible Freguency Drive.)Can run three phase pumps from a single phase inlet. Many people do not know this. But you can connect and fuse the single phase inlet to a VFD and bet 3 phase output as long as the input diodes can handle the total motor ampacity. This can easily be overcome by buying a drive 2-3 times over the capacity of the motor. Some drives monitor 3 phase input so they dont single phase. And those should be avoided. For those some, They can give out alarms and can be disconnected you should do reasearch.
As far as OEM's this is another subject matter and maybe I should start a new thread. And the reason for my subject matter.
We have several machines running off a pre-PLC system. They work off the same principle but much less complicated. This system is called MACO 8000. And to this date OEM's will not give us an editor program. Or the compiler program. We had to update the machine for this new process and had no choice to pay them $1000 to come out and make the changes we wanted. He did, And the machine did not work, He flew out again and told us he forgot this or something. The next day, We found out that he put a nc contact where a no contact should have been and he denied it and wanted to charge us $1000 to change it. I think OEM's that old should give us this program for free especially since it has to be run under DOS or Windows 95. If anybody knows anything I need a MACO 8000 editor and complier program for color and black&white also Maco 4500.
Bob I agree with you 100%. A Sprinkler system, No matter how complicated it is, Is not a machine. Nobody can be hurt and there should be no reason that you could not edit their program. If you think about it, All actions happen when nobody is there. Except you because there is a problem. And what what you described earlier, A VFD,(Varible Freguency Drive.)Can run three phase pumps from a single phase inlet. Many people do not know this. But you can connect and fuse the single phase inlet to a VFD and bet 3 phase output as long as the input diodes can handle the total motor ampacity. This can easily be overcome by buying a drive 2-3 times over the capacity of the motor. Some drives monitor 3 phase input so they dont single phase. And those should be avoided. For those some, They can give out alarms and can be disconnected you should do reasearch.
As far as OEM's this is another subject matter and maybe I should start a new thread. And the reason for my subject matter.
We have several machines running off a pre-PLC system. They work off the same principle but much less complicated. This system is called MACO 8000. And to this date OEM's will not give us an editor program. Or the compiler program. We had to update the machine for this new process and had no choice to pay them $1000 to come out and make the changes we wanted. He did, And the machine did not work, He flew out again and told us he forgot this or something. The next day, We found out that he put a nc contact where a no contact should have been and he denied it and wanted to charge us $1000 to change it. I think OEM's that old should give us this program for free especially since it has to be run under DOS or Windows 95. If anybody knows anything I need a MACO 8000 editor and complier program for color and black&white also Maco 4500.
TWControls said:
I like the CLX solution on V16 that allows you to build AOIs & protect & document them as you see fit. I'd build a AOI & document the working in that situation. Tell them the states that come in & go out & leave it at that.
Hi Guys,
I'm well aware of the capabilities of VFDs, however it appears that some at the golf course do not. Another local course suddenly closed and a all of a sudden a place that was loosing money could afford to replace a system that was a real problem with another one that soon will be again.
This point amoung the others that have been made here have highlighted to me why I should not concern myself with this outfit any longer.
Once again, I thank all who contributed to this thread.
Best Regards,
Bob A.
I'm well aware of the capabilities of VFDs, however it appears that some at the golf course do not. Another local course suddenly closed and a all of a sudden a place that was loosing money could afford to replace a system that was a real problem with another one that soon will be again.
This point amoung the others that have been made here have highlighted to me why I should not concern myself with this outfit any longer.
Once again, I thank all who contributed to this thread.
Best Regards,
Bob A.
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