Extending 14 day Trial License

HenryLamboo said:
...They calculate the cost for their software development in the hardware...
Henry,
This is my point exactly, so it only 'appears' to be free.

HenryLamboo said:
... and even then the hardware is cheaper than that from the big companies like AB and Siemens.

But how much more inexpensive (don't like to use the word cheap here!) would the hardware be if the company made a one-off charge for the software.
Remember, using this method, you are actually paying for the software every time you buy a piece of equipment o_O .
 
Why is software so different?

Why don't we expect PLC companies to say "Well you've bought my CPU so I'll give you the I/O for free." And yet we seem to expect those same companies to do that with software.

To be honest I don't understand the mechanism or economics of genuine freeware or open source software. I use OpenOffice, which is a magnificent undertaking, and yet I just don't get it. How can people spend so much time, effort, resource, hardware, server space, web hosting etc developing this package only to give away their product (in this case their only product) free? Somebody somewhere has to be funding this somehow, and yet I just don't see why it works.

Will Rockwell, Siemens and the others ever adopt an open source approach to their software? I very much doubt it and to be honest I hope not. The idea of a control system programming tool built by a committee sends the shivers down my spine. If something goes wrong then I want to know I have someone to kick when it does. What is the status of software given away free by the (so far anonymous) companies people keep referring to in this thread? If you get something for nothing what are your expectations and rights in terms of support, service, functionality and development?

I'd love it if someone can explain this whole area for me.

Ken
 
Ken M said:
How can people spend so much time, effort, resource, hardware, server space, web hosting etc developing this package only to give away their product (in this case their only product) free?
I think they make their profits by dealing in volume...
 
On the subject of free...

Since this topic has evolved, let's through a little curve-ball at it.

I know of at least one company (Unitronics) providing great products at low prices, with free software and support. Of course these days this is the exception and not the rule.

But on the whole "somebody's paying for it somehow" topic, let's look at a master programmer, teacher and all-around hero we all know and love - Phil Melore.

This guy puts almost as much info in the tutorial at the top of the page as he does into his book - and doesn't charge for it. He supplies three servers to run this site - and doesn't charge for it. He is writing a PLC simulator FROM SCRATCH! And he doesn't charge for it.

Now, I'm sure he makes a little from the book and the tapes, but probably not. Bandwidth ain't cheap, folks. People who buy these are getting some of the best dollar value in training to be had anywhere. But unless I'm mistaken, this man has a full-time job and a family, besides this collection of misfits hanging out here.

(I say "misfits" in an affectionate sense, and include myself in the number)

That said, how can one man offer so much to the industrial community world-wide? There is nobody here who can question the scope of the impact of his work. There has to be some personal sacrifice - I bet he hasn't seen the premiere of "Lost" yet - and probably some financial sacrifice as well.

I don't know what drives Phil and keeps him working so hard not only to fuel and maintain this site, but to expand it and offer more all the time, but I do know this - more heads of industry should be paying attention to this little 1-man start-up that engenders more loyalty among his "customers" than all of their brand names COMBINED.

My 2-bits.

TM
 
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TimothyMoulder said:
Since this topic has evolved, let's through a little curve-ball at it.

I know of at least one company (Unitronics) providing great products at low prices, with free hardware and support. Of course these days this is the exception and not the rule.

You mean free software.

The software from Sigmatek is also free including support. I also used software from Unitronics and this software is great.
These companies are not to big and they can give free software. For the big companies you only pay for the name.

Henry
 
Another neat trick for Unitronics is their systems group, which does special projects like warehouses and such. They actually expand their software to cover new requirements in their contract jobs, then pass the innovations on to their customers at no additional charge.

TM
 
Now you can understand why I dont like them.

They sitting next to me and compete on same jobs

Should I reward them by useing their products.?
 
I have never understood....

Why is it everyone thinks all things on the Internet should be free? Free music, sofware....the list goes on.

It is no different than buying a computer, if it has an OS pre-installed then the cost is added to the system. Dont give me that Linux thing either, very few people could install Linux UNLESS it is from a developers package...ie a paid for product.

Its good to find things that are given to you free but in many cases NOTHING IS FREE. A car dealer may offer free tires as long as you own the car but ever saw a tire dealer offer a new car if you buy tires there?

The whole concept of obtaining something free for professional use does not make sense, basically you are saying I want paid for what I do but I do now want to pay for what I use.
 
Ken,

I am so glad you asked that question.

The example you stated is different because you are comparing something with both hard and soft costs (I/O cards) to something that is soft cost (programming software) only.

It all depends on your perspective.

First let's start by stating that there are three parts to the PLC.

1. Hardware
2. Operating System (firmware)
3. Programming software

Many manufacturers believe that the software is a profit center. Because there is a cost associated in developing it...they must recoup their costs and also be profitable.

They also take the view that the PLC and software are separate development projects.

If you take this view, then you are basically stating that the programming software is its own product...which is false. The software is designed for one purpose and one purpose only...to program the PLC.

Those of us who believe that the above three items are one product, means that we have decided to incorporate our costs under one development and not separate them, in order to recoup our costs. The costs are recouped in sales of product.

You also have to take into account the operating structure of the organization. More people more cost...but you should be selling more to support the size of your infrastructure. Also, you should probably take into account if the company is publicly traded. Public companies are beholdened to their stock holders to squeeze every inch of value out of the company in order to maximize shareholder wealth. How do they do this...charge for everything that has a cost associated with it. Because these companies have set up their structure, relying on payments from software and support, they are now beholdened to continue. Remember...Social Security was supposed to be a temporary program as well...now look at the beheamoth it has become.

Then there is the belief that purchasing the software supports the cost for support. If that were the case, then the hardware would cost less. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

If you state that AD's hardware is less than others, it is not because of this but because of their selling model. They have eliminated distribution and representation and gone with a direct model...similar to Dell. They do have some value added resellers, but it is nowhere near the same model.

My intent is to make a fair profit. I have no desire to squeeze every cent possible from my customers. You need an extra cable...no problem...you need a few extra fuses...no problem. It is all about enhancing the customer's experience. So you net a few dollars less because you gave away some parts...big deal. The end result is that the customer is satisfied.

In attending a marketing seminar recently, the speaker mentioned that in order to get something, you need to give something away. One way to attract new customers is to give something away...no strings attached.

And Tim, those were excellent points about Phil.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,
 
I think the open source communities are fuelled by the same thing that fuels this site, ie. enthusiasm about the subject.

People develop software in their own time because it isn't "work" to them, they enjoy it. I used to do a bit of writing in the past (actually written 2 novels) and I never saw it as work. It was an escape. Work is what you are 'forced' to do. Hobbies are what you 'choose' to do. The open source community develop software etc as a hobby.

It's very similar to the functionality of this site. Why do very learned people offer their expertise on this site answering questions every day for no monetary gain? A service that, if you went out to try and source, would no doubt cost a fortune. It's because they enjoy doing it, its nice to be able to use one's knowledge to help someone else.

However, the major PLC software manufacturers are not a bunch of hobbyists, they are businesses and are run as such, ie. you make a product, you charge an amount for that product that yields you a net profit at the end of the financial year.

To say whether something is expensive or cheap is a relative concept. To me the software I use (S7 et al) isn't particularly expensive as it allows me to make money by doing my job.

If I didn't have the software I couldn't make any money. No money.. no beer.. I'm sure you'll agree this is an unimaginable state of affairs...

:)
 
They also take the view that the PLC and software are separate development projects.
I see them as separate developments. In reality many could use microchips (microcontrollers or whatever you want to call them), develop their own I/O (easily obtained) and program using machine, assembly or C.

The reason many do not use this method is development time and costs, its easier to use hardware designed for the application and its associated software.

That software will not be an actual language per se, its going to be a development that creates a GUI to simplify the process of using a plc programming language. If you take a look at many of the open source type projects they are developed slowly in many cases because it is a hobby, the manufacturers do not have this option. When they develop hardware features the software must be developed so those features can be used.

I wish prices were lower but they are what they are. If the prices were lower and all the plc companies did offer free software that doesnt mean more would use them or the profit potential would increase. Its just a perk or come on that some companies use.

IMHO the reason the big plc companies consistently maintain their market dominance are the hardware features and software ease of use. There are some points in this respect that could be debated, Siemens software can be difficult to learn (for some) because I think it relies on how Europeans are educated ...ie not ladder but more into programming. The point is Siemens (and other big companies) offer features not always available with other brands.
 
Stephen Luft said:
Ken,

In attending a marketing seminar recently, the speaker mentioned that in order to get something, you need to give something away. One way to attract new customers is to give something away...no strings attached.

That is just so much BS. It is nothing but cheap talking points by some pin-striped suit consultant. You know how to attract new customers? By offering a good product that offers a good return on investment. You ever heard of Ford (You know, the automotive company)? You know who they just adopted as their standard for controls? Yep, Siemens, because Siemens can get the job done. All I have heard for 10 years was that you have to know AB to get in on the automotive industry in the US, but now Ford and Chrysler are switching to the Siemens in a big way. And I absolutely guarantee that Siemens has never given away anything since Georg Siemens started the company in 1850.

And Stephen, it doesn't matter what Siemens or AB or anyone else wants to charge for software. They can charge a billion dollars per license if they want to. But that still doesn't give they guy who started this thread the right to ask advice on how to steal software.

In fact, since I write software for a living, I would be pretty ****ed if someone stole mine. If I found out about it, I would have the biggest, baddest lawyer I could find all over him and put the thief out of business.
 
S7 V5.3, Point of information

I would guess that none of the S7 users who have contributed here have noticed it, because they all have fully licensed versions of the S/W, but according to the blurb associated with V5.3, when the 14 day license expires, if a full licence is detected on the PC, but it is not activated, S7 will continue to run with nag screens. If no full license is detected, S7 will no longer run.

This means that as long as you have a full license, you can move the authorisation from PC to PC as required, but still work, with nag screens, on a secondary PC (say on site, for example). But if you have never had a full license on the PC V5.3 will cease to run when the 14 day license expires.

Personally, I find this a perfectly reasonable compromise. I can well imagine there were more than a few cheapscates who were perfectly willing to live with the nag screen for the sake of "free" S/W.
 
RMA said:
...when the 14 day license expires, if a full licence is detected on the PC, but it is not activated, S7 will continue to run with nag screens. If no full license is detected, S7 will no longer run.
Thanks for that info.
I thought that I had actually tried that sometimes. When installing STEP7, but before installing the license, then opening STEP7 would ask you to install the trial license, if you then abort the installation of the trial license STEP7 would startup but with the nagscreens.
I will try it out the next time I install a STEP7 on a new computer.
 
Just installed Win CC Flexible on a new PC.
Tried to start it before the license was installed, and yes it behaves like Roy says.
It asks to install a trial license, and shuts down if you do not install the trial.
 

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