how can i solve this analg output problem ??

[magdyfayad]

first thanks for your helps


the AC drive Altivar 15 is an old and do not change drom 16 years and also no kepad program as the keypad program is an optional for Altivar 16 and we did not have it , so the Altivar 16 is an old AC drive , the new project only for Optimove 1 instead of PRC1


the two prjects are identical for 15 years ago , as the only change for PRC1 to Optimove 1 for one project only


I contacted with ITWGEMA from Swizwerland yesterday , and till now no solution from them ,


i found the Run signal and the direction signal ( but i m not sure now the postive or the negative ) both Run and Direction are continous 24 vdc !!! , this note also in the old project use PRC 1 and Altivar , so i can not prevent neither the Run signal nor the dierction signal !!


i know the normal case there is a run signal must come from the the PRC1 or the Optimove 1 when we push start key only , but i found as i said both Run signal and the direction signal is continous 24 vdc !!!

so the only method i use to prevent the anlog output only ,- but also it must be zero voltage at the power up -

but this is the only method for me now that i can to prevent the motion of the motor at the power up ,

but then the another problem appeares to me : on - off on - off relay at the rest of the motor only


thanks again for your cooperation

wait again for your responses

 

[Lancie1]

I found the Run signal and the direction signal ( but I'm not sure now about the postive or the negative). Both Run and Direction are continous 24 vdc !!!

How can that be possible? If the RUN command never varies from full voltage, then it is not a Run command at all. It should change when the Start Key is pressed.

Besides, the drives usually have internal voltage on the RUN terminals, so must have a switch or "dry" contact to give the RUN command. It cannot be done with only an external (not-common) 24 VDC.

Why is your relay going on and off?

Could it be that the load of the relay causes the Optimove power supply voltage to drop low enough to deenergize the relay, resulting in it going on-off-on-off (cycling)?

A smaller relay or a solid-state relay might work better, but using a relay to control the analog speed voltage signal is still not a proper solution for the problem.

Instead, try connecting the relay coil to the RUN command output of the Optimove (not the 0-to-10 VDC analog speed signal output), then connect the drive RUN terminals to the relay contacts.

 

[magdyfayad]

to overcome my problem as the 10 vdc appears automatically without push start key i did the following :


i power up the power up the optimoove 1 and ALTIVAR 16 i measure all terminal voltage i found two of them are continous 24 vdc !!!! that i measured it several times to be check why they are continous not change but i do not know how and why ???

i found a siganal at the power up is zero voltage , when we push start key it become 24 vdc , so i use this signal to activate 24 vdc relay to prevent and break 10 analog output voltage by this 24 vdc relay , then at the power up for the optimoove 1 and ALTIVAR 16 , the motor dows not move , that is good .

when we push start key the motor move that is good also .

when we push stop key the motor is stopped that is good also , but when we push stop key to stop the motor i found this 24 vdc relay is on - off- on - off - untill we push start key again then the motor moves well without any problem , so my problem appear when the motor at the rest only

thanks again

 

[magdyfayad]

note although this signal is zero voltage at the power up the motor is run because the 10 vdc analog output , so the only method now to breake the 10 vdc analog output

this signal come from optimove 1 , you give me an idea the on - off does not mean 24 or zero it may be 24 or less than 24 but not zero as you told to me

" Could it be that the load of the relay causes the Optimove power supply voltage to drop low enough to deenergize the relay, resulting in it going on-off-on-off (cycling)?
"

at all if this signal change rapidly between 24 and zero or between 24 and less than 24 , what is the solution for on - off for trhis 24 vdc at the rest of the motor

thanks

 

[Lancie1]

I powered up the optimoove 1 and ALTIVAR 16. I measured all terminal voltages. I found that two of them are continous 24 vdc !!!! I measured it several times to be sure. Why they are continous and not change--I do not know how and why ???

You should look at the Altivar manual to see which terminals are the Run command (terminal FW or RV). This terminal must have a voltage FROM the Altivar drive power, not from the Otimove. So measuring the voltage at the terminals will not help idenfity WHCIH terminals must be used, nor how to use them.

The Optimove can only act as a switch to connect or disconnect a voltage from the Altivar reference voltage to terminal FW. What voltage will be measured between terminal FW and reference, who knows? It doesn't matter. what matters is that the drive is wired correctly, with an input that will connect it's own reference voltage to terminal FW.

Also, where is your Altivar "Switch 1" set? If it is set to "50 Hz" then it runs on power-up. If set to '60 Hz", it does not run until receiving a Run Command and a 0-10 VDC speed signal.

 

[magdyfayad]

note although this signal is zero voltage at the power up the motor is run because the 10 vdc analog output , so the only method now to breake the 10 vdc analog output

this signal come from optimove 1 , you give me an idea the on - off does not mean 24 or zero it may be 24 or less than 24 but not zero as you told to me

" Could it be that the load of the relay causes the Optimove power supply voltage to drop low enough to deenergize the relay, resulting in it going on-off-on-off (cycling)?


i want tell tou this ALTIVAR 16 do not change from 15 years ago and worked well all these 15 years by PRC1 , we also change the PRC1 by OPTIMOVE 1 so the problem do not at AC drive ALTIVAR 16 and we did not change the setting of it

the only problem as i think for aptimove 1 by comparsion by the PRC1 the both project now worked , the project use PRC1 the anloge output at the power up is zero but the project use optimove 1 the anloge output at the power up is 10 vdc

so if as you say " Could it be that the load of the relay causes the Optimove power supply voltage to drop low enough to deenergize the relay, resulting in it going on-off-on-off (cycling)? "

how i prevent the on - off either this signal change rapidly between 24 and zero or between 24 and less than 24 , what is the solution for on - off for trhis 24 vdc at the rest of the motor

thanks

 

[Lancie1]

so the problem do not at AC drive ALTIVAR 16 and we did not change the setting of it

Please check to see where Switch 1 is set. It may need to be different.

I am sorry that I cannot solve this problem for you. I know we have a language commumications difficuly. It seems that you are determined to fix the problem (not by addressing it directly) but by approching it from the side.

I wish you "good luck" in finding the solution.

 

[magdyfayad]

do you think to use solid state relay with wide range as from 10: 24 vdc to prevent cycling ??


can we found this solid state relay with wide range as from 10: 24 vdc or not found ?/

thanks

 

[milldrone]

It seems that you are determined to fix the problem (not by addressing it directly) but by approching it from the side.

magdyfayad,

How do you have this set?
.

.

 

[magdyfayad]

i do not understand what is the relation between this and between at the power up there is analog aoutput 10 vdc ?

 

[milldrone]

magdyfayad,

It looks like this input starts the program without pushing the start button.
.

.

 

[magdyfayad]

yes , may be ,but what is the solution to make the analog output signal to be zero volt at the power up



thanks

 

[milldrone]

magdyfayad,

I cannot solve your problem

 

[magdyfayad]

I think the solution may be at to reverse some connestion for the encoder which connected to X 2 position

see page 36

 

[robertmee]

magdyfayad,

I cannot solve your problem

You have way more patience than me....

Magdyfayad,

Your design is flawed. What everyone here is trying to tell you, is that the approach you are taking to try and solve this problem is flawed and potentially dangerous. You need to take a step back, and look at re-designing this system to operate safely. It DOES NOT MATTER, that this has run for 15 years. That MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. It is not safe, and you are compounding the problem with your hackneyed approach. Take the advice of the well seasoned, experienced integrators and DO IT CORRECTLY. The fact that you continue to march head-on with what you believe is the only solution is not the right approach. Listen and learn.

It is apparent that the drive has been wired/configured to use an analog signal for start/stop. That anything above 0V, and the drive runs because the run enable has been permanently set high. What happens if you get spurious noise on your analog signal? You have a motor that starts unexpectedly and potentially hurts someone. How do you e-stop this motor if you can't remove the run signal? Your configuration is dangerous and probably illegal/against code. Take the advice presented here, and do it correctly.