ML1200 and PID

I work with generators all the time but am not familiar with the Watlow unit.

Digital generator controllers such as Woodward EGCP2 or Si-TEC TGC have their own PID set up to keep the speed constant. In fact they have several PIDs for idle and run. There are PIDs for load and voltage at both points as well.

Is the Watlow unit an old analogue device? If so I would suggest you replace it with something much better.

By the way, you will never keep the speed absolutely constatnt. It will vary with load dumps on and off. The trick is to minimise the variation.

How big is the turbine? Basically, the smaller the turbine the greater the speed fluctuation due to a lack of momentum.
 
Did you implement your own ITAE or ISE evaluator? This would help you determine if the gain adjustments are making things better or worse.

To be honest, I barely know what you are talking about so to answer that I would have to say that I used the method described in the AB Publication 1762-RM001E-EN-P Page 19-23 to calculate I and D.

Here is a link to it

The algorithm is on page 19-2

My steady state cycle time was 6 seconds with displayed value:
P = 1.0
I = 0.0
D = 0.0

My calculation via the manual gave me the following displayed values:

P = 0.5 (Halve the gain)
I = 0.1 ( 6 secs = 0.1 X 60 secs )
D = 0.1 ( 6/8 =0.75 0.75/60 =0.0125minutes)

It actually runs best at:
P = 0.5
I = 0.1
D = 0.01



Ok what I will do is try and get some data, but this will take a few days, as I have to start from scratch on that.

The "Watlow Unit" is basically just 3 X 100A dimmers using 0-10V to vary the output. The turbine and generator rating is 100KW.
There is no off the shelf controller. This is what is being created.
 
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Electric Power Generation the Old Fashioned Way.

My first 'adventure' out of college was generating power. We used steam to turn the turbines instead of water. We controlled the steam flow so the turbine would turn at 3600 rpm. ( 60HZ ). We also controlled the field on the generator. More load required a stronger field. This in turn tried to slow down the turbine, but the govenor would keep it running at 3600 rpm. For the most part this was automatic. The controls were crude by my standards today by they were well done and releable. There was a droop factor for the voltage as a function of load. As BobB said, the control will not be perfect but that also made is more stable. As the load increased the bus voltage would droop a bit, but not much. The operator could make some fine adjustments.

azecraze, can you see why I am confused? Your plant is NOTHING like the plant I worked on. We didn't have dummy loads. We didn't try to keep the load constant and then wonder what to do when the load changed by 50%. We had a couple of controllers. One for frequency/speed control and the other for generating power by controlling the generator field. Hydro plants control the flow to the generator, I just looked up hydro electrinc power generation on the web. I was sure that there must be a flow control to control the speed or power, but you insist than you don't control power, you control load. Have you thought that maybe something can be learned by looking at other hydro electric plant operations?
 
Peter's right about getting away from such a heavy reliance on the PID function to correct for things you know. You have the makings of a reasonably snappy system here. You can very quickly swap power usage from the 'customer' load to the heater load. And you have an effectively closed system. You generate a fixed number of watts and EVERY watt has to go somewhere.

It always helps me when I think of control systems in human terms. And may best analogy is accelerator control when you drive. When I drive I tend to press the accelerator down farther the farther I am away from my desired speed. As I approach my desired speed I gradually back off the accelerator. This is proportional correction. As I get very close to my desired speed I make slow adjustments over time to finally get me to my desired speed. The longer it takes me to get to speed the farther I push dow. This is integral response. I don't use much derivative response now. But some day, when I buy my Lamborghini, I probably will need to add some of that too. But now my favorite. If I come up to a hill I don't wait for the speedometer to tell me I'm coming off speed. I know that if I ma going uphill I need to add accelerator. So I press down immediately without a look at the speedometer at all. I will ultimately look at the speedometer to stay on speed. But I know that because of the hill I need to accelerate. THAT is feed forward; a command given NOT because of error but JUST BECAUSE I know I need it base on experience or a model.

Peter mentioned disturbance rejection. Imagine you are only using the accelerator in a car; someone else is steering. You only have the speedometer to look at to keep on speed. However, as you start going up the hill your body tells you that you are going uphill; you just feel it. So you immediately press down on the accelerator regardless of what the speedometer said. That's disturbance rejection. You didn't know the load change was coming but as soon as you detected it you knew what was needed to counteract it without having to wait for the error.


First of all, you should take a little different approach as you spin your turbine up. By now you must have a pretty decent feel for how much load you need to send through the heaters to stabilize your turbine at any given water flow. Use that information as a bias. That is to say, you know that just because your water metering valve is open 'X' amount you need to send 'y' current to the heaters. So just send that command. There is no reason to let the PID function figure that out on it's own. You KNOW what is required. So just TELL the output what to do directly. This is the essence of feed forward. You simply generate the commands you know will be required anyway. Why wait for the error?

Next, like Peter said, if you have any capability to measure 'customer' power use that information to your advantage. A power meter will tell you directly what the 'customer' power consumption is. You may be able to get by with a current meter only if your voltage stays stable enough. If you subtract 'customer' power from your total power generation you get a value for the heater power. I am assuming these are standard resistance heaters, so you can say P = I^2R. You should be able to get a pretty close value for the number of amps each heater sees per volt of command. With those pieces of information you should be able to come up with a heater command value that quickly adjusts to the 'customer' load, and so far the PID isn't even involved. This is a disturbance rejection term.

Now you add your PID and you start tuning it to handle the small losses and errors you couldn't account for in you feed forward and disturbance rejection terms. But now the PID doesn't need to do so much to keep you on track, which makes the PID loop much easier to tune and still get acceptable results.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Keith
 
Yes Pete you are right. Unfortunately for me though none of this concept was my idea and fortunately it doesn't use my money.
The project fundamentals were put together by someone who should have known better, and I am on the receiving end of the "supplied control gear" This method has been successfully employed here in NZ and I have even visited a site with the same concept in action but different control gear. Hence my stubborn attitude and narrowmindedness.
Thanks Kamenges for your synopsis. It was very well put.
What you are all saying has a lot of merit for one very important reason. If I start running out of water, I need to be able to get rid of the right amount of load!

I will sign off here for a few days while I do some hands on and then come back with something (hopefully!).
 
The whole concept seems crazy to me!!!!!

Use a digital controller to control the flow of water and an AVR/DVR to control voltage.

3 x 100 watt dimmers????? What a crude controller.

Hardly worth all the effort for a 100kW generator. No wonder they do not want to spend any money.

Peter Nachtwey quoted
There was a droop factor for the voltage as a function of load.
The only time we worry about droop CTs to the AVR/DVR and droop control is when 2 or more sets are paralleld or we are paralleld with the mains. Single stand alone set does not require droop control.
 

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