OT: Poll : Economic situation

[surferb]

No - I did mean least equitable, which in economics (to the best of my understanding), refers to the balance of the burden of a cost, between the rich and poor in this case. Suppose the cost is a flat $5,000 - the burden is felt differently from the household that makes $10k versus $500k. The tax is equal, but not equitable. Similarly, even a flat percentage of income is felt more heavily on the low income brackets (by your argument below).

About the discretionary versus non-discretionary aspect of spending - consumption taxes treat both equally. In fact, a scheme could be devised that lowers the rate of non-discretionary items. I've seen a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that since the wealthy invest instead of immediately spending that consumption tax isn't affecting them. This simply isn't true - what are you going to do with money but purchase goods or services?

The aspect of the idea that I like is that the $500 goes straight to use, instead of the $127 after making it through the IRS, accountants, etc. Also a progressive tax discourages productivity to some extent. I'd say that I made a pretty "average" salary last year. I did quite a bit of consulting on the side in my spare time. Between regular taxes at that bracket and self employment taxes, what I payed was staggering - enough to change my work habits this year. On a larger note, don't think that actual business decisions aren't made with accountants and tax attorneys sitting around the table.

As much as I'd like to see taxes eliminated, we'd all be way worse off. Not just national defense and civil services - infastructure comes to mind.

Nate -- you said
I like your idea, but a flat tax seems like the least equitable of options (with low "deadweight loss", though).

Uhhh did you really mean to say most equitable?

The argument over sales tax being regressive is that the poor spend more of their takehome on non discretionary items (they finally got rid of taxing food) ie heat fuel, etc than do the rich.

Of course the rich on the other hand of the argument save their money invest in industry which makes for jobs.

What I think it comes down to is someone whining that someone is getting a better deal than them and that is discriminitory blah blah blah.

The only way you are going to please ALL taxpayers ALL the time is to eliminate taxes. Course there are a couple consequences to that action but let us not argue over trivial details such as national defense, etc etc that are for the common good.

Dan Bentler

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

You guys are off topic

The tax systems didn't cause this mess.
The top 50% of income earners pay 96% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% pretty much get a free ride.

Blame the banks.
Blame the politicians that let the banks make bad loans.
Blame those that voted for the politicians.
Blame those that defaulted on their loans.
I blame the 50+% of you.

 

[TimWilborne]

The tax systems didn't cause this mess.
The top 50% of income earners pay 96% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% pretty much get a free ride.

Blame the banks.
Blame the politicians that let the banks make bad loans.
Blame those that voted for the politicians.
Blame those that defaulted on their loans.
I blame the 50+% of you.

Wow Peter, what a rare occasion. I completely agree with you.

People don't realize how bad they would get screwed with a flat tax, but I think more than anything, just like the oil industry, it is something easy to complain about that not many people will call you out on. I think your bar analogy explained it best

 

[SeanLee]

I dont remember who it was but quite some time back someone ran for President perposing a 10% tax rate for everyone and every company. No IRS just one tax rule with no deductions.

It was figured we would have the national debt payed off and start a serplus in a matter of just a few years.

The problem is all the jobs lost, i dont care about corparate accountants and lawyers but former corparate lawyers are the ones running the country.

Also if there was a flat tax with no exceptions the polutitions would lose there power and then lose there hidden money and again they are running the country so they wont let that happen. A flat Tax would help people like us normal working class people but for those that crave power and greed it would destoy them and improve our economy and wellbeing, but we can not have that too many people profit off of caous and destrution of our system.

That is just my 2cents

 

[randyk]

If people would look at the Fairtax and give it a fair shot they would see that it is a better way to go. A federal sales tax that only applies to new items and everybody pays it, that means the tourists that come to our country, the people that don't pay taxes now and the ones that hide their money in over seas banks so they don't have to declare their total income. This would put alot more money into our government than they get now and everybody would pay it.

 

[harryting]

..

Blame the banks.
Blame the politicians that let the banks make bad loans.
Blame those that voted for the politicians.
Blame those that defaulted on their loans.
I blame the 50+% of you.

True but I think it's less than 50%.

did anyone catch the 60 Minute story on the toxic loan (Option ARM). I remember those, with a teaser rate of 1%, but they forgot to mention it's 1% of PAYMENT, not 1% interest rate. People who sold those loans should be excuted.

 

[leitmotif]

I firmly believe that if you pick any 3 people from different economic levels they will all say with 100% conviction that I and my class are bearing the tax burden.

The bottom line for the tax mess and others can be summarized by a cartoon in Pogo from many years ago.
"We have met the enemy and he is us"
Namely the Average American who has let control of this country slip out of his hands and into the hands of the legislators, lobbyists, special interest groups etc etc.

Dan Bentler

 

[jshiepe]

And those same 3 people are the ones who refuse to educate themselves with factual data before setting foot in the voting booth on election day. Quite a scary thing, don't you think?

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

True but I think it's less than 50%.

No it is much higher than 50%. Last night I just saw president elect Obama say that it was the democratically run committees on finance that let the nation down. Who elected all these democrats? These guys are elected by the over 50% that didn't vote for the other guy. The people that didn't vote are guilty too. There there were the republicans that voted for Bush. They are guilty. That makes up 95%.

So does anyone want to admit they defaulted or are slow to pay on their loans or their credit cards. They are guilty.

 

[leitmotif]

The tax systems didn't cause this mess.
The top 50% of income earners pay 96% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% pretty much get a free ride.

Blame the banks.
Blame the politicians that let the banks make bad loans.
Blame those that voted for the politicians.
Blame those that defaulted on their loans.
I blame the 50+% of you.

Well at least Peter is just another typical American
Dont look at me man I didnt do it all them other guys did it.

In one way or another we all did it. I am just another and just as guilty and the really sad thing is I damn near dont care.

Dan Bentler

 

[harryting]

Hey Dan, how's it going. Our plant in Renton is closing and I'll be out of a job soon.

Maybe we can have a Seattle PLC meet-up and all get drunk. hehe

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

You guys are still off topic. Taxes didn't cause the problem.

Well at least Peter is just another typical American
Dont look at me man I didnt do it all them other guys did it.

There is little typical about me.
I am blameless. I didn't vote for any of those incompetent politicians. I voted for the smarter ones that told the truth that people didn't want to hear so they didn't get elected.
I am not late on any loans.

In one way or another we all did it. I am just another and just as guilty and the really sad thing is I damn near dont care.
Dan Bentler

I refuse to take the blame and I am bitter about everyone else making their problem my problem too. It is sad you don't care.

I firmly believe that if you pick any 3 people from different economic levels they will all say with 100% conviction that I and my class are bearing the tax burden.

The person making the most would be right. The other two have been listening to democratic politicians that keep on repeating the same garbage over and over again about how the middle class is screwed which is rubbish. It is these same idiots that let the banks and investment firms run amok. They can't be trusted with our money.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22652.html
Notice that the source is the IRS.
Notice also that is says the top 50% pay almost 97% of the taxes. The bottom 50% pay a little over 3% and the next 25% pay only about 11%. Did you think I was making this stuff up?
Taxes didn't cause the problem.

You get the the government you deserve if your are lucky. We haven't been very lucky the last 8 years. Perhaps I should say you get the best government money can buy. Look at Illinois. We need a little outrage here folks. Saying I don't care doesn't cut it.

 

[jshiepe]

Well said Peter. It's nice to see someone else who can support their argument with factual data rather than unfounded hype.

Jeff

 

[TimWilborne]

I agree with Peter, the tax system didn't cause this mess but...

The tax systems didn't cause this mess.
The top 50% of income earners pay 96% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% pretty much get a free ride.

Blame the banks.
Blame the politicians that let the banks make bad loans.
Blame those that voted for the politicians.
Blame those that defaulted on their loans.
I blame the 50+% of you.

Anyone read about the "Fairtax"? Interesting idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairtax

Has anyone actually read this whole article? Forget about the tax structure and reforming it. Read the last section, "Fair Tax Movement"

The origins of the FairTax began with a group of businessmen from Houston, Texas, who initially financed what has become the political advocacy group Americans For Fair Taxation (AFFT), which has grown into a large tax reform movement.[14][24] This organization, founded in 1994, claims to have spent over $20 million in research,[92] marketing, lobbying, and organizing efforts over a ten year period and is seeking to raise over $100 million more to promote the plan.

They've spent $20 million on research, marketing, lobbying, and organizing efforts!?! They plan on raising $100 million to promote the plan! There are people, most who are only contributing a small amount to the tax base, contributing money to this group. We need to start a Policital Advocacy Group

 

[surferb]

Nope - I don't pretend to know much about it.

Has anyone actually read this whole article?