RANT: AB RSview Studio ME xyz

[TimothyMoulder]

The problem is in the business model, which is currently evolving. If Rockwell does an install on a system with equipment and software so cryptic, nobody but they are able to work on it, the result is a cash cow - and guess who's getting milked?

When AB moves their programming systems to the level you need a Phd to work on them, it shuts out the local tech and automation houses. And to echo the concern of RSDoran, the sparky on the floor hasn't a hope in hell.

Finally, about this "good hardware" stuff. Okay, so it's good hardware. But face it people, if you can't put it to work, it's a paperweight. Even if it's an industrially-hardened one you can drop from 10 feet safely, it's STILL a paperweight. It's like saying a yugo was a good car - so what if it was?

TM

 

[Gerry]

Gerry... we have had this discussion before. Your whole grizzle about the PV+ is completely negated by one simple thing that you choose not to mention: Flash Upgrade.

1. Exactly the same issue exists with many modern PLC's. You need to flash the hardware to match the version of the software. Works for the PLC's, works fine for the PV+ as well.

2. Until Ver 10 CLX had exactly the same limitation as RSView Studio does now, ie only one Version at a time could be installed. A nuisance yes, but not the end of the world. All we did to get around it was flash the hardware to match the software. There was no reason not to. Downloading the latest PV+ firmware is found here Firmware Updates

3. At Ver 3.2 CPR6, RSView Studio has been performing flawlessly for me. All I have done is make sure that everything I installed was also at CPR6. Just like they tell you to.

How many end users do you know of that flash update firmware on everything they have every time a new version is available? In my experience, this is avoided like the plague. If they have a working system, they don't mess with it. Generally, they have more pressing issues to contend with.

PanelBuilder32 will handle every version of the standard PanelView. Do you really believe moving to the lock-step regime of PV+ and Studio is progress?

Even though CLX has a similar lock-step regime, it has always been possible to upload the program and view and edit it without the necessity of having original files. And, I can have multiple versions of RSL5K co-resident on my PC. When, if ever, will RSV Studio permit that?

If you want to change their default behaviour just go into the Windows Services Manager and change them from Automatic to Manual and they will only start when you want them to.

Yes, yes, and I've done that.
But they are set to automatic in the install process.

 

[PhilipW]

Tim,

There are three observations I would make about your post.

1. You have just implied that the largest US automation supplier(and #2 or 3 in the world) makes paperweights. mmm

2. Everyone, including me, has aggravation problems when they move from one hardware/software system, to another. It is quite easy to learn the first one because you don't have any fixed expectations. You learn how to make it stand up and go, and work around any quirks. When you later come to using a different system you now have a bunch of ideas about how you think it should work...and when of course those expectations are not met in exactly the way you expect...you get immature rants and tantrum throwing. Been there done that myself, and I've tried to grow out of it.

3. There are plenty of ordinary techs out there happily making a living using RS and last I looked there was no PhD on my wall. Many Rockwell products are have more capablities than those who do not use them regularly realise. Does this make implementing them more demanding...yes. Can it shut out the plant floor sparky...well yes again...just as your local GP doesn't go in for open-heart surgery any more. If you want the benefits of more sophisticated systems, you may just need more capable people to run them.

 

[akreel]

The scary thing is that I have this unit in the field, operating a 24/7 process, and, now the end user needs to access the thing from a different computer, and the project files are all native to my laptop.

TIP:
There are some backup/restore utilities on the AB website. They work, with a little effort, on SE applications. They might work with ME, too.

AK

 

[PhilipW]

Even though CLX has a similar lock-step regime, it has always been possible to upload the program and view and edit it without the necessity of having original files.

PV+ files are complied to run on WinCE and are just like any other Windows executable in this respect. Tried reverse engineering a VB6 application lately?

And, I can have multiple versions of RSL5K co-resident on my PC. When, if ever, will RSV Studio permit that?

Agreed. No idea and it will nice when it arrives.

 

[automatic]

Software Engineering is a relatively new field, and the tools and expertise does not exist to make any software idiot proof. There are infinite combinations of possibilites on a host computer and network (domains, active directories, policies, other installed software ....) that it is humanly impossible to test all scenarios.
The field of Software Engineering and the technologies available are rapidly changing, which makes it necessary for things like flash upgrades to take advantage of the new developments. Yes, you learned a CH Panelmate in half a day because it had just a handful of fuctionality. And you used it for an application that fit in that small circle. Today, you have a lot of functionality and you have to learn and choose what's right for your application. If your customer requests that:
1) you should use PV+ and none other
2) there should be 12 trends, all running in the background
you tell him that 1) and 2) cannot co-exist.

It will take an enormous amount of cost and time to avoid these issues until the Software Engineering field matures and develops methods to get ahead of these hurdles.
Or you will have to have software like Linux which is reviewed and tested by thousands of people. But then again, how many of you will prefer a never reboot linux system, to a user-friendly windows, which you may have to reboot a few times a month.

Yes, Rockwell is a marketing machine. But it has worked OK so far, when companies like TI have failed with an Engineering face. Why change it now?

Maybe this has been discussed in other places on this forum. But given a choice to implement an HMI, what Software would you use? Wonderware is not bug free. Cimplicity is not bug free. And neither is SE. Which is the most stable one you all have come across? Is it RSView32?

The ability to upload program (not the .mer) from PV+ is coming in a later version as I've heard.

 

[Sleepy Wombat]

PhillipW wrote:
Not true. I've got all the RS software you can think of installed on my laptop right now. I've just booted it up and run the above batch file. Only one of them (HMI Diagnostics) was running. So I go to Services and change it's config to "Manual". Now NONE of them are running from startup.

Well, you must be lucky Phil because all i have loaded on my machine is RSLogix, Panelview and RS Studio V3.2. From a fresh bootup i did a Ctrl' Alt' Del check to see what services were running and sure enough, there they were.....Ran the batch file and did a screen grab for ya also....

What does happen is that once you open RSView Studio, the services it invokes are not automatically stopped when you close Studio. This is pretty much how all Services run. If you want to change their default behaviour just go into the Windows Services Manager and change them from Automatic to Manual and they will only start when you want them to.

Thanks for the tip, but why should i have to do this ?

Quick Edit
mmm Can't seem to upload the image>>
But the some if the result was
RUNNING "Rockwell HMI Diagnostics"
RUNNING "Rockwell HMI Activity Logger"
RUNNING "Rockwell Directory Server"
RUNNING "Rockwell Event Multiplexer"
NOT RUNNING "Rockwell Directory Multiplexer"
RUNNING "Rockwell Event Server"
RUNNING "Rockwell Application Services"

 

[panic mode]

Quote:
And, I can have multiple versions of RSL5K co-resident on my PC. When, if ever, will RSV Studio permit that?
Agreed. No idea and it will nice when it arrives.

i don't agree...

while this might be temporary patch, i'm sick and tired of having to install and maintain dozens of packages.
i want only ONE. in fact i would like to see
EACH version to work with ALL earlier releases.
making same software to co-exist with own different versions
is as much work as doing it right in the first place.
imho, guys doing it are just incompetent, either due lack
of direction, programming skills or familiarity with windows programming.
maybe RS just can't afford right people to do it.
maybe that's why they have so many PLC programming packages.
it definitly affects why their products are so expencive and incomplete.

 

[PhilipW]

PanicMode:

I think you need to have a nice long chat with some actual software engineers sometime. What you are asking for just isn't realistic anymore.

The main problem is that of validating all the possible combinations of PLC hardware and software versions that can co-exist. As time goes on the problem gets exponentially worse. Plus they are caught between this and the requirement to meet target release dates. Plus the entire field of software engineering is a rapidly moving target. Just one for example: When CLX was first planned, the XML document standard was not even thought of...now everybody wants it.

In addition:

There are infinite combinations of possibilites on a host computer and network (domains, active directories, policies, other installed software ....) that it is humanly impossible to test all scenarios.

In order to release stable product in a timely manner MOST the major vendors with modern PLC's have moved to the strategy of keeping the PLC firmware and software in lockstep.

And because RS has so many software packages that have dependencies on each other, they have gone a step further and introduced the Coordinated Product Release (CPR) idea in order that they can ensure that all the various bits work together ok. Even then it is a major challenge to get right.

Frankly pm, although I can understand your desire for an easy life, I don't think you are understanding what you are asking for.

 

[504bloke]

Ok

Heres something i just thought of

RSView Studio needs multiple installs which wont co-exist with each other for different firmwares of the PV+

Other software doesnt like to co-exist or run on xp or need pure dos etc etc

I have not got rsview studio so cannot try it but if anyone wants to try then take a look at

VMWare here http://www.vmware.com/products/desktop/ws_features.html

You need a fairly powerful machine but it is excellent, i run XP and use a VMWorkstation on my laptop for running older xp/2000 unstable products on either dos or win98

I also use vmworksattion for installing new products before i go live and **** up my laptop

Like i said take a look at their website but basically you install the Workstation and then this runs virtual software models of a machine running any Os you like inside you own machine

Two screen shots of a win2000 virtual workstation in the zip file attached

 

[panic mode]

Hi Phil,

I like to rant, curse and even exaggerate, but let me assure you that I have no illusion that someone will be calling me from RS tomorrow with a promise that they are making it just the way you or I like it. Software development is business like any other. There is complexity to it and requirement for proper planning, flexibility etc.

Quote:
There are infinite combinations of possibilites on a host computer and network (domains, active directories, policies, other installed software ....) that it is humanly impossible to test all scenarios.

Now isn’t that the first thing you always hear every time PC programmer is trying to find some lame excuse for sloppy job.

This might be good excuse for some products like RSLinx but not for applications that use it. And things like that wouldn’t bother anyone but when ridiculous mistakes that take forever to “fix” starting with simplest things like clipboard function (basic copy and paste), open and save file, change path/directory, not functional cross-reference, corrupting files while changing mode etc. what do you do other than laugh at (or curse) the “visionary”.

 

[Ken Roach]

Althought I hesitate to give this thread a longer life, I figured I'd weigh in on two of the more recent posts.

First, a big thumbs-up for VMWare. At RSTechED, we ran 600 computers running 3000 VMWare virtual machines with only a small handful of hiccups (none of which I witnessed). I especially was impressed by the testing of FactoryTalk fail-over of data and HMI servers running on separate virtual machines on the same Dell workstation.

Second, I was very pleased to hear that the next product release of RSView Studio is going to support a "save as" function. You'll be able to work on RSView ME 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, and 4.0 projects on the same RSView Studio installation.

 

[akreel]

First, a big thumbs-up for VMWare. At RSTechED, we ran 600 computers running 3000 VMWare virtual machines with only a small handful of hiccups (none of which I witnessed). I especially was impressed by the testing of FactoryTalk fail-over of data and HMI servers running on separate virtual machines on the same Dell workstation.

VMWare?
FactoryTalk fail-over? Details, please.

 

[tom_stalcup]

I haven't tried vmware yet... but the virtual pc seems to work well for my older dos applications...

Has anyone used both of these systems? I'm interested in finding out which one works better...

 

[Gerry]

Second, I was very pleased to hear that the next product release of RSView Studio is going to support a "save as" function. You'll be able to work on RSView ME 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, and 4.0 projects on the same RSView Studio installation.

Some real progress at last!!
That will take away one of my gripes.