Should there be a minimum internaltional standard for PLC programmers?

[VAN]

My two centavos;

Obviously math, physics, etc are all important:

How do you teach someone to think logically and understand the big picture?

How do you do it, and pay them min. wage? - America's wet dream

 

[arpus4KM]

My two centavos;

Obviously math, physics, etc are all important:

How do you teach someone to think logically and understand the big picture?

on paper - they pay you, you sign it and send them off

in real life - you don't...

 

[geniusintraining]

How do you teach someone to think logically and understand the big picture?

I have been doing this since the late 80s and for troubleshooting... I think you have it or you dont, I think that comes with exposure, I have done a LOT of different things and I think that has helped me with the understanding how things work and why, I also think this is one of the reasons my favorite TV show is "how this is made" I find it really interesting how things are done.

Teaching this to someone has been very hard to me

 

[travispedley]

Teaching this to someone has been very hard to me

Man, I feel this. I have a hard time teaching new hires things I know and take for granted. Teaching does NOT come as easy to me as programming does.

 

[atc222]

Git,

When people ask what I do, I often ask if they've ever seen "How it's made." I've also been lucky enough to work on a wide range of projects.

I think the answer to my original question is mentoring, and exposure. It takes a few years to turn someone into a competent programmer. I'm not sure how you could even test that competence except in the real world.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

How do you teach someone to think logically and understand the big picture?

in a nutshell ...

you spend much more time asking them questions – instead of telling them facts ...

examples:

(1) why did you test the voltage on that particular pin?

(2) what do you expect to happen when we finally turn on Switch A?

(3) what are two or three guesses as to why the motor won't run?

(4) what kind of test could you use to help narrow down those guesses to just one "most likely" candidate?

(5) and so on ...

the main trick is to LISTEN to what answers the student gives you to questions like these ... that way you can gain some insight into what he's thinking – and how his thinking process is going ...

if he starts heading in the WRONG direction, just give him a little bit of extra time to see if he'll realize his own mistakes and make his own course correction ... but ... then if he's still heading off into the weeds, you should suggest another way of looking at the problem ...

many (most?) instructors are satisfied to simply teach "facts" to their students – pretty much just a one-way interchange of knowledge ...

on the other hand, teaching a student how to "think logically" requires a substantial amount of "two-way" communication - and naturally a hands-on approach ...

or at least that's the teaching method that worked the best for me ...

 

[I_Automation]

Teaching this to someone has been very hard to me

Brings to mind the {sort-of} joke a manager talking to the boss:


"But what if we train them and they quit to go somewhere else?" He asks


The boss replies "What if we don't train them"

 

[bill4807]

I have found the few times i have been asked to "train" someone to do a said task, or job function they grasp a quarter of it then they are taken away from me to go do that task, and thats ok i understand the process.

I think the disconnect is most owners and managers want someone to train new hires 15 years of experience in 1 month.
The right way would be to continually (mentor) new hires, but from what i have seen they jump ship for that extra $3/hour before you can properly show them anything that would benefit the company. I will admit i was guilty of this when i first entered the industry, but it was after a period of time that i felt confident enough.
I wish i could find a new graduate that wanted to troubleshoot machinery, in a field service setting. That is where i learned the most, and most i was in the weeds at that.

 

[_Dock_]

Some of the most innovative people I have ever met were the ones with the least amount of formal education. They had no one to tell them how things should be done.

There are areas where proper education matter. There are areas where aptitude will always outweigh education. You rarely find someone with both.

 

[kwade]

Brings to mind the {sort-of} joke a manager talking to the boss:


"But what if we train them and they quit to go somewhere else?" He asks


The boss replies "What if we don't train them"

Now, I am not sure where my employer falls within this scheme!

 

[kwade]

Some of the most innovative people I have ever met were the ones with the least amount of formal education. They had no one to tell them how things should be done.

There are areas where proper education matter. There are areas where aptitude will always outweigh education. You rarely find someone with both.

I have encountered TOO MANY who are educated beyond their capacity to use the purchased education.

 

[arpus4KM]

in a nutshell ...

you spend much more time asking them questions – instead of telling them facts ...

examples:

(1) why did you test the voltage on that particular pin?

(2) what do you expect to happen when we finally turn on Switch A?

(3) what are two or three guesses as to why the motor won't run?

(4) what kind of test could you use to help narrow down those guesses to just one "most likely" candidate?

(5) and so on ...

the main trick is to LISTEN to what answers the student gives you to questions like these ... that way you can gain some insight into what he's thinking – and how his thinking process is going ...

if he starts heading in the WRONG direction, just give him a little bit of extra time to see if he'll realize his own mistakes and make his own course correction ... but ... then if he's still heading off into the weeds, you should suggest another way of looking at the problem ...

many (most?) instructors are satisfied to simply teach "facts" to their students – pretty much just a one-way interchange of knowledge ...

on the other hand, teaching a student how to "think logically" requires a substantial amount of "two-way" communication - and naturally a hands-on approach ...

or at least that's the teaching method that worked the best for me ...

This is actually a solid way I've taught my kids to think more logically about things.

It's always involved allowing them to think something through, and not just throwing answers at them expecting them to get it. Just because I tell someone that a motor failed, doesn't mean they even understand how it works, or why it failed, or how it was found in the weed of other problems that popped up as a result of a motor failure.

A lot of "Schooling", or "Training" in my view, has devolved to handing out certificates and degrees as much as possible because it would reflect poorly if an educator couldn't teach their subject. There is no profit to be made in failure, so the best way to "Succeed" is to hand out answers, not show how to find solutions.

 

[PLC Pie Guy]

This is actually a solid way I've taught my kids to think more logically about things.

It's always involved allowing them to think something through, and not just throwing answers at them expecting them to get it. Just because I tell someone that a motor failed, doesn't mean they even understand how it works, or why it failed, or how it was found in the weed of other problems that popped up as a result of a motor failure.

A lot of "Schooling", or "Training" in my view, has devolved to handing out certificates and degrees as much as possible because it would reflect poorly if an educator couldn't teach their subject. There is no profit to be made in failure, so the best way to "Succeed" is to hand out answers, not show how to find solutions.

I remember way back in trade school. The day the instructor had to introduce and teach us PID. I remember him reading the whole first page, basically just describing what PID is, then he threw the book on the table frustrated and said, everybody passes this module! We were in first year electrical. Not one person in the room was grasping the concepts that day. We had just learned what electricity is and he (instructor) was a Construction Electrician.

This quote just reminded me of that day is all, he was very frustrated with trying to teaching material he didn't understand himself.

 

[Jim3846]

PLC training to do OEM projects: this takes 1 year of training, then take them on a job or two with you. If they had some experience before you got them under training with me, then its maybe 1 additional year that you guide them on projects. Usually takes 3 years to see some independance with the engineer that they can run their own project.

I am not a fan of government rules for this area. An example of this is conveyor projects at airports that are run by the USA government. These take years to complete due to all the rules that some bureaucrat created. Versus a customer in the real world that is usually 6 months to a year depending on project scope.

 

[padees]

There should be a tier level for maintenance people, probably as well. Was on a conference call last week on a system I know well. All new people. They described the issues, 3 zones in a 13 zone system had issues. They explained they would start to heat up, then would stop or cool and one zone never did heat up. I specifically told them to check and make sure there were no cooling water leaks to the barrel zones (extruder) 3 hours later got a call, yep no water leaks, so said I would have to stop by and figure this mess out.


When I 1st got there, I asked are you sure there are no water leaks? Bubba said I'm sure. OK, lets test everything out... one zone had a broken wire, no control/electrical issues on the other 2 zones.


I asked several times while I was there, are you sure cooling water is not leaking by the valve? Yep, no water leaks. I then pointed to the solenoid operated diaphragm valve on each zone. Bubba said he never checked that "sensor". Um, that's not a sensor, and where the cooling water comes from. Turned off the ball valve in front of it, both zones in question heated right up.


Hey, I gave them the answer on a free phone call, but now I can make 2 Mango payments, plus get a Rib-Eye dinner.