Automation direct

[Mike]

Dear Jiri,

I think it was very foolish of you to call Automation Direct or anyone else a Marketing company when compared to AB. Just a little bit of information, AB is one of the largest marketing companies in the US. Just in case you did not know AB brand labels about 2/3's of their product line. So this was a very poor statement. Remember there is a reason why all of their PLC families have different software packages and cables, because who every was the low bidder supplied what they had to AB.

Just thought I would throw my two cents in.

Mike

 

[Ken Roach]

[Sigh.]

 

[93lt1]

Just thought I would throw my two cents in.

Mike

Two cents worth of what?

 

[Mike]

93It1,

Two cents worth of facts:

AB does not manufacture all or even half of what it sells.

According to Don Davis AB is not a hardware company, but a software and intergration company. (This came from his interview in Automation Managing magazine.)

According to Jiri a company who buys and resells product which someone else makes is no more than a marketing company.

So buy Jiri's own terms AB is a marketing company and nothing more.

I am sorry that my two cent worth of opion has offended you, but the facts speak for them self.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Ken, You Is One o' the Good Guys

Aw, Ken, don't go a gittin' all discouraged like. While I ain't shy about my feelins on A-B tech support in general, you looks t' me like a bright star shinin' in the miasma of Rockwell indifference. If your personal outstandin' abilities and attitude catch on under the clock, then A-B will git back to their glory days in no time.

 

[93lt1]

Your OPION didn't offend me, I am just wondering where you are getting your "2/3" or "even half" marketing data......

 

[Mike]

Fact:

All SLC 500's are made by Nippon Denso for AB.

All AB light curtains are made by SICK Optics.

All AB relays, timers, counters and some sensors are made by Omron.

AB IEC contactors are made by Sprecher & Schuh.

Other AB items are also brand labeled by other manufactures for AB. Most of their PLC's are made by someone else. AB is not what they use to be and never will be because of the direction of the company.

 

[Ken Roach]

This is NOT supposed to be an Allen-Bradley thread !

Mike, turn over almost any Rockwell Automation manual or catalog. Do you see a map of the USA ?

Rockwell Automation, like any other big company, often gets into new markets via acquisition. They didn't have many European-style safety products to sell until recently, when they started brand-labeling some Sick Optic light curtains, and outright bought the Guardmaster limit switch company in England.

Same thing with the IEC contactors; Old 140's were made in Milwaukee, but to expand into the IEC market Rockwell bought part of, then later the entirety of, Sprecher+Schuh.

I did a quick inventory of the products within easy reach of my desk... 15 Made in USA, 3 made in Germany, 4 in Japan, 2 in Malaysia, 1 in Korea. That's about 1/3 overseas production. None of those items are available with anything but an A-B label on them.

I don't feel like explaining every product line's country of origin, but I do take exception to your assertion A-B doesn't make their own PLC's. A-B's niche Guard PLC and Pico Controllers are made by other companies. But the common PLCs, the PLC-2, 3, 5, SLC-500 and ControlLogix are all designed and built in the USA.

I don't see how any of this has anything to do with Automation Direct, their marketing model, their product reliability, or their technical support, so this is the last I'm going to say on the matter.

(P.S. My project next week ? Let's say it's All-American. "Eight Burning, Four Turning")

 

[Operaghost]

I still get such a kick out of everyone'e perception that Rockwell/A-B is such a huge company that they can assert their will though their sheer size. Anyone look at market cap lately?

Here are some Market Cap comparisons for you. All U.S. dollars:

• Honeywell $27B
• General Electric $302B
• Rockwell $3.4B
• Siemens $46B U.S. ADR
• Amazon.com $5.37B
• Microsoft $261B
• Walgreens $36.2B (yes, the pharmacy)
• Johnson Controls $7.2B
• Starbucks $7.8B
• Avon Products $11.3B
• eBay $16.1B
• Dell Computer $63.4B

Rockwell at it's biggest was about $14B before they spun off all their other pieces. They are the little guy with the large market share.

Oh, and if I recall correctly, the original SLC 500 Fixed controllers were made in Japan. The modulars are mostly made in the U.S. with an occassional module from Canada, Mexico and Asia. Sprecher+Shuh has been owned by Rockwell for quite some time now. The original PLC-2 software was made by ICOM and then A-B had a version. A-B made the 6200 series for PLC-2/3/5, ICOM made their Logisitics software for the PLC-2/3/5. ICOM was later bought by Rockwell. Stop getting your "facts" from WorldCom accountants, it's embarassing, really!

Those assembly lines I saw in Ohio and Milwaukee sure had me fooled. I thought for sure I saw PLC and SLC modules whipping by. Must have been a SICK Optical illusion. I believe you meant that the ice-cube 700H relays were made by Omron. Is your Chrysler or Dodge vehicle really just a branded Mercedes or is the Mercedes a branded Dodge? Do you run around after people driving Mercury Sables calling them liars because Sables are really just branded Taurus'? Get a rope.....

Also, as Ken was saying, if you want to play in the world market, you had better play the game correctly in each country. If you don't sign a deal to co-brand products in Japan and in the U.S. they simply close the door to your products and don't let you in. A-B formed a joint venture with Nippondenso to get a foot in the door to the Japanese market. Without a Japanese tie, American companies have an extremely difficult time getting Japanese customers to buy their products. I believe Rockwell bought out that joint venture a couple years ago once they were established in Japan's market.

If someone tells you they make every product that you will ever need and you believe it, then I have an Injection Molding Machine I'd like to sell you.

Let's face it, we all have our favorite PLC brands and maybe the one we love to hate. Jiri's statements were posed as questions but mostly looked like A-B cheerleading which turned the thread into a bash A-B thread (once again). Good points have been made about AutomationDirect and good points have been made about A-B. We could continue this thread until the Injection Molding Machines come home and no one who has already made up their mind is going to think differently.

The bottom line appears to be "don't knock it until you've tried it because there is a whole slew of people that have tried it and do like it waiting around the corner to beat you senseless".

OG

 

[Eric Nelson]

"We could continue this thread until the Injection Molding Machines come home and no one who has already made up their mind is going to think differently."

Exactly!...

And Ken, you are right. This is NOT supposed to be an A-B thread, though A-B was (once again) dragged into it. The difference here is that it was dragged in by HAPPY A-B customers this time. I tried not to make it an A-B vs. ? with my responses to Jiri, to no avail...

Some of us remember a time when Ken didn't have to deal with these threads constantly. I found an old photo of Ken when he was much happier...

[attachment]

Maybe we can all knock this off already... Everyone knows we NEED Ken around here!

beerchug

-Eric

P.S. Do you know how hard it was to find a picture of Moe smiling?

 

[rsdoran]

From the maintenance man perspective

I have never cared who made what for who..ie if AB had someone in Japan make a part and add their label. Being in the manufacturing business that is a standard. I have (and am now) been in the paper industry, I have seen products from many known brands made in plants with names noone would ever know. When I was younger the paper plant I worked in was bought out by the Japanese (for the contracts, they closed the plant).

As far as what AB sells I LIKE their products but have had problems with support. I am going to state this tho, the bigger the company YOU work for (ie the more you buy) seems to have a bearing on the quality of support you recieve. I now work for American Greetings and not too long ago W.R. Grace...at the latter I received excellent support and at the now place it is getting better.

BUT when I was in business for myself the local and corporate support was BAD...that is life in the fast lane tho.

I noticed I got a call from AB recently asking about the number of Micrologix etc we buy ..and how often we buy etc. I have to assume this has a bearing on the overall picture.

Being a maintenance man I MUST deal with a variety of brands, old and new. My knowledge of a specific brand is limited ( especially the programming features of the plc's ). Where I am now we have AB PLC 2, 5, SLC500 (many models),Micrologix, Siemens S7, GE Fanuc, GE Series One, TI 305, Siemens 305 (NOTE THE LAST 3 are the same thing), Klockner-Moeller, ABB, Modicon (even some old Gould models), there are more. This isnt counting being familiar with motor drives like Eurotherm, Reliance (some really old like Maxpack and mo/gen sets), some new like the 1396 Impact, SP500, AB160, Flex 3000, Magnatek, Yaskawa, etc etc al. At a moments notice I have to know how to FIX the problem and/or obtain the parts/info needed to do this.

MY point to all this is that I have to deal with AD (Automationdirect) and they do offer good support.

Siemens has good support but they are slow updating their devices/software. I am impressed with their plc's and getting more impressed daily. They offer alot of options too.

Klockner Moeller has good response/support but I am not impressed with their plc's.

GE is OK but something is lacking...cant say what.

ABB and Modicon I refuse to discuss.

AB has support but it can be confusing to get the person you need when you need them. IF you are with a LARGE company and do global business then it makes sense that you will get decent support. KEN this in no way is a derogatory comment, life is what it is. I know you are good at what you do and have pride in your abilities, are all your associates as committed as YOU...its rare with any company. I appreciate your being here because your knowledge/understanding of AB products is priceless. I like AB products overall and stipulate them when designing/acquiring new machinery.

NOW I have a question to ask...I have superficial knowledge of most plc's including AB and AD and the specific devices associated with.

WITH AN IMM, what is the difference when using a AD plc and a separate hydraulic controller from using an AB plc that has a module to perform the same function. Isnt this the same thing. The PLC alone can not perform certain functions so another device is added to do this? I can understand that when familiar with a brand then adding that brands module can be simpler but is it different?

Wouldnt the same thing apply to motor control...some plc's have devices to use for axis control and others dont.

Wouldnt the same apply to the different comm protocols..some plc's can do this but cant do that ...without added cards or an external device?

ALL bashing aside, I use both those in question and like them. This thread has raised more questions for me than it answered.

COST aside (not into debate now on pricing) would there be a difference using an AD and the controller Peter mentioned from using an AB plc (CompactLogix was mentioned, I didnt see SLC or PLC5 mentioned) and its module?

This is a serious inquiry.

 

[Mike]

Ken,

My point was not to bash AB, but to point out to Jiri that his statement that Automation Direct was a marketing company, unlike AB. The point is as you stated most all manufactures brand label some products in their lines. AB also brand labels, which in Jiri's terms would make them a marketing company.

I am not a big AB or Automation Direct fan, although I have used both. PLC's are a lot like eating out, you like some places more than others, and you get better service at some places than others. With PLC's, you like some brands better than others, and you get better service from some brands than you do others.

It was quite apparent to me that Jiri thought that AB does no wrong, and that they manufacture all of their products, which as you well know is not true. I was trying to point out that Jiri's statement was not correct, and that if he conciders Automation Direct a marketing company then, so is AB by his own terms.

 

[rsdoran]

To clarify my above statement/questions, I do not care at this time about what plc is better.

I am trying to understand some fundamentals. I have dealt with a few IMM, blow molding, extrusion etc...also pick & place, robotics etc.

What I am trying to find out is WHY someone would believe a brand of plc COULD not do an IMM (or any industrial type machinery) and the reasons thereof. As far as marketing goes I know KOYO is relatively young but they have been making these things a good while. Is there a short coming that I am not aware of?

The above posts confused me a little, one person stated that an IMM should have/needs an additional controller but another stated AB has a module that does this....this is some of where I need clarification. IS there a difference in what the PLC can do? Does a brand that has a specific module to work in there plc any different from using a 3rd party unit?

I think I am confusing myself...these 7 day work weeks with call ins can get to you after awhile.

All bashing aside, I would like to get some form of understanding about this.

 

[Gerry]

The above posts confused me a little, one person stated that an IMM should have/needs an additional controller but another stated AB has a module that does this....this is some of where I need clarification. IS there a difference in what the PLC can do? Does a brand that has a specific module to work in there plc any different from using a 3rd party unit?

I think it comes down to a question of perspective - an OEM building an IMM may chose one option over the other because of price or engineering time considerations, whereas an end-user may have different opinions based on serviceability, equipment standardisation, and reliability. A question of one man's profit versus another man's return on investment.

AB attempted to become a one-stop-shop for the plastics industry and developed specialised modules for hydraulics control, barrel temperature control, blow moulding, and communications. They also put together packages including software called Pro-Set (anybody remember ControlView?). And of course they had ERC (and ERC II, no less) which was promoted like some sort of voodoo that would solve all your injection moulding problems.

My limited experience (with the temperature control modules) is that they are expensive and complex, but they do a great job. OEM's and end-users place different worths on these attributes.

So, where is this aimless rambling going? I think if you're an OEM with volume production, you'll be inclined to mix and match hardware to minimise cost and invest some additional engineering time, whereas if you're an end-user doing a retro-fit, you should go for a one-brand solution.

Now that I think about it, I think retro-fitting was the target market for these modules.

Quote from one of those old AB pocket notebooks:

"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten"

 

[alanc5]

Post #4

WELL THE WAY I SEE IT. 17 YEARS, OR REALLY 6205 DAYS + 4 DAYS FOR LEAP YEARS. THIS COMES OUT TO ABOUT 72.475 CPU'S PER DAY IF YOU INCLUDE WEEKENDS OR 101.32 CPU'S PER DAY IF YOU DON'T INCLUDE WEEKENDS. IF THE AVERAGE COST FOR 17 YEARS WAS AROUND $5,000 DOLLARS PER CPU , THATS 2.25 BILLION DOLLARS. STILL 450,000 SEEMS KIND OF SMALL BEING THAT EVERYTIME I OPEN A CABINET THERES A PLC 5 STARRING BACK..???? HOWS THAT FOR SALES....? AB= DIVERSITY!!!!!